The best cap material for tone pot

[Jacew]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

We all have our preferences.....price being quite low on my list. I'd rather the neatness, and the fact that a lot of hookup wire flexes - so legs of exposed components make contact with other components. I've had more than one short from cavity items grounding after time and being transported/used etc.

I like Mallory caps for that reason. Being horizonta, small, and long legged, they're really easy to just drop in neatly in the harness.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.

I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[devastone]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.

This might matter if they are used for coupling caps in a circuit, I don't buy it for tone caps that are just bridged to ground. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by a "cilincer" is, but I assume a cilinder is a cylinder?

 

[CarlosG]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

People from hi-fi audio equipment say that the best cap for audio is polystyrene, right after him polipropylene(not metalized, for example 715p and 716p, which is better?)
I want to try it, but polistyrene cap has polar + and -. So how to connect it correctly?

 

[devastone]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

They are using caps for coupling, so it does make a difference. For tone pots, the value is the most important parameter.

I also thought the idea in one of the early posts that ceramic capacitors change more due to humidity and temperature is interesting, especially since we use them in LEO satellites because they don't fall apart due to temperature and vacuum.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

The machine reads differences in tone between different cap materials of the same value and I can certainly hear differences. I'm not sure why you're saying they will unequivocally sound the same.

Because they DO!

And, no, you can't hear the difference with your ears...only with your mind.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.

Well, my brain IS an oscilloscope, and it doesn't "hear" a bit of difference between different materials in caps at the same value rating. At least not in the manner that we use them for guitars.

People! Let's get real. Let's at least be honest with ourselves even if you can't be honest with others. NONE of you, yes even you Superman Clint with your supernatural hearing, can actually "hear" (meaning with your humanly imprecise inner ear mechanism) a difference.

And even if I could concede (but I won't) and acknowledge that maybe there could be an audible difference, it would be insignificantly too small to matter at all!

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I think the problem is that most multimeters won't read capacitance. So most folks depend on the value written on the cap. If you grab a .022 uF cap with +/- 10% and compare it to another one of a different material type, you could actually be comparing .0198 with .0242. And that will cause an audible difference. I've never found someone who could tell a difference in a blind test between two caps of the same measured value though.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

You people need halp. You say there is a difference as read by a machine then tell someone else that they can't hear it. What gives? It's very easy to hear. I used ceramic and those green chiclets I forgot the material, polyester? I watched the demo and thought I could tell a difference and decided to try them out since bassy sound is one of my favorite things to get wired. The orange drop and pio were my favorite on the demo and I tried them and they sounded great! The orange drop is nice and supple while the pio is all smooth and creamy and vintagey. It even changed the sound of the top end when I had it on a 250k pot on 10. Also, saying that someone can't differentiate between different tone colors because the values might be slightly different is like saying you can't hear the effect of A2 in 2 of the same pickups if 1 is 8.25k and the other is 8.5k. Also the argument that it can't make a difference because the top end is going to ground is not a valid argument. Different materials could (and do) filter differently and send different frequencies to ground.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

You people need halp. You say there is a difference as read by a machine then tell someone else that they can't hear it. What gives? It's very easy to hear. I used ceramic and those green chiclets I forgot the material, polyester? I watched the demo and thought I could tell a difference and decided to try them out since bassy sound is one of my favorite things to get wired. The orange drop and pio were my favorite on the demo and I tried them and they sounded great! The orange drop is nice and supple while the pio is all smooth and creamy and vintagey. It even changed the sound of the top end when I had it on a 250k pot on 10. Also, saying that someone can't differentiate between different tone colors because the values might be slightly different is like saying you can't hear the effect of A2 in 2 of the same pickups if 1 is 8.25k and the other is 8.5k. Also the argument that it can't make a difference because the top end is going to ground is not a valid argument. Different materials could (and do) filter differently and send different frequencies to ground.

What were the measured values of the capacitors you used?

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I haven't ponied up and got a mutimeter that measures capacitance yet. I guess I might.

 

[WDeeGee]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.

Oh, I forgot, transients was also mentioned. The speed with which a dielectric is able to pick up fast signal changes (the so called "attack").
I've always felt Orange Drops (or polyprops in general) have a bit of a spongy, bouncy attack, whereas ceramics produce a rather hard attack.

All of this is very noticeable when using these caps as couplers or snubbers in tube amps. In tone pots, the effect is less, naturally, but it exists, of course.

Which reminds me, I used to have these small elco's that sounded really spacial as cathode caps. Really made the sound very "wide", something akin to "stereo". I also used these yellow mylar caps from China, that had the opposite effect, making things sound very focused, or "mono". Those that do mixing in DAW's know what I mean. But how can a single guitar speaker sound "stereo" with one kind of cap in the preamp and "mono" with another? Simple: slight phase shifts caused by the cap's imperfections trick the mind into hearing "spaciousness" in the guitar sound. I remember those Svetlana EL34's producing a similar effect: they made the guitar sound appear to come from all directions, probably for the same reason: inadvertent phase shifts of certain frequencie bands.

Maybe if we had perfect materials all amps would sound somewhat the same?

 

[WDeeGee]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

saying that someone can't differentiate between different tone colors because the values might be slightly different is like saying you can't hear the effect of A2 in 2 of the same pickups if 1 is 8.25k and the other is 8.5k. Also the argument that it can't make a difference because the top end is going to ground is not a valid argument. Different materials could (and do) filter differently and send different frequencies to ground.

That is a good analogy right there.

Also, some people may have 20/20 vision but then there's one or two colors they can't see, so let's not be too judgemental. People do imagine things, but I can tell you that when a guitar amp has orange drops in them, I recognize 'm from a mile away. Or at least, I used to be able to tell, as I have since stopped building amps.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

That is a good analogy right there.

Also, some people may have 20/20 vision but then there's one or two colors they can't see, so let's not be too judgemental. People do imagine things, but I can tell you that when a guitar amp has orange drops in them, I recognize 'm from a mile away. Or at least, I used to be able to tell, as I have since stopped building amps.

No. Actually that was a very BAD analogy.

A better analogy would be: You have 2 identical planes. One can fly at 385 mph and the other at 386 mph and you're telling me that you can feel the difference in speed while flying in them; or that you can see the difference in speed while watching them from the ground. Sure the instruments can detect a difference, but YOU cannot...not with any of your 5 natural senses (nor even your 6th sense if you have one).

Instruments (oscilloscope) can detect differences in caps of different materials, but your ears can't. Assuming, of course, that their VALUES are exactly the same.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I haven't ponied up and got a mutimeter that measures capacitance yet.

Yet you’re fine with proclaiming that we’re all challenged in the senses because we can’t hear differences between cap materials in onboard tone controls like you can with your golden ears.

Such a comparison starts, at the most basic level, with caps of identical capacitance. Until you get that, your experiment is totally useless.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I'm not in a good place to look it up right now, but there's a double-blind study out there that shows that when the values are the same people cannot statistically hear any differences between capacitor types.

It's all placebo effect and companies taking advantage of people who want it to be true.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

You can see full frequency responses for 90 different capacitors in a tone circuit application graphed out here: http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I only see a comparison of caps of different measured values. Although their frequency plot does show them to be different. I'm not sure how they can conclude that there's no difference.

I'm not saying you guys are deaf. I'm saying you're relying on scientific conjecture rather than analyzing real world observations. I know what I can and can't hear. I'm not sure why you're telling me I can't.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I only see a comparison of caps of different measured values.

Please, read the web page a little more closely. They list all 90 of the capacitors tested, and include both the type of capacitor, it's stated value, and it's measured value. Even a picture of the capacitor tested.

Although their frequency plot does show them to be different.

The frequency plot is not "different". It's shifted. Again, if you read carefully you'll see that the response is shifted corresponding to the measured value of the capacitor tested . . . which is given in the legend for each graph.




This information is all summarized in their conclusions section:

The data and sound clips above show clearly that for tone capacitors of close measured capacitance value there is no difference in tone. For example, compare the clips and plots for the “Monolithic X7R 0.022uF – 0.0204” and the “Vishay 225P Orange Drop 0.022uF – 0.0204”. (You can click on the colored box in the legend and the line will be highlighed briefly.) These two capacitors, of the same measured value (0.0204uF) but different dielectrics have indistinguishable plot lines, differing in frequency at the 0dB crossing by about 0.3%. This difference is below the rated accuracy of our measurement equipment and is statistically insignificant.

The capacitor values in the 0.022uF graph vary from the 0.022uF nominal value -15.5% to +12.7%. (The obvious outlier, the ceramic disc, was a junk drawer special from a Radio Shack grab bag.) The range of frequencies where the curves cross 0dB headed down on the right is about 728Hz (-11%) to 906Hz (+11%), using linear interpolation. The actual dependency is nonlinear, but we used linear interpolation as an approximation to compute these percentages. Going further and plotting a frequency vs. capacitance curve in a spreadsheet and fitting a quadratic polynomial, the correlation coefficient is better than 0.97.

We found only moderate statistical corrleation between the voltage rating of a capacitor and the frequency response (0.45). However, the correlation between the value and voltage rating of all 90 capacitors was 0.40, explaining the former correlation and eliminating voltage rating as a tone determining factor.

It appears that the variation in frequency response is due to the values of the capacitors and not any other factor. From the sound clips, you will notice that you can hear NO difference between the capacitors, except for the most extreme tolerance variations.

There is no advantage to using large, high voltage capacitors. The smaller, lower voltage units work as well.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I don't see why they didn't group some caps with the same measured value and test and compare those. Their conclusion isn't congruent with their findings lol.