Thin brittle output

[DR Ron]

Hi,

I have a Squier Strat and have replaced the bridge pickup with a Pearly Gates Humbucker and the neck with a JB jr. I used the stock pots and wiring and the pickups wired as instructed by the instructions. I plugged into my amp and both of the pups were thinner than the stock single coils...and they redefined the term ice picks.

I have since re-wired the entire guitar with cts pots a Fender 5 way and quality wire. Not a bit of difference...they are painful.

I tried coil splitting them and in one position of a dpdt on/on/on the pickups came alive. I'm new to wiring so I have no idea what I did but it was magic. I want to remove the coil split because the other positions are unusable. Once I removed the switch I haven't been able to get that tone again.

What did I do and how do I get it back?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Artie]

Re: Thin brittle output

I understand your frustration, but . . . you can't always drop an LS-6 into a Vega and make it work. I've had good luck with Squiers. YMMV.

Don't give up. You just have to keep trying other things. The Trading Post is a great resource for inexpensive alternative pups.

Good luck on your tone quest. Keep us informed. We'll help out where we can.

Artie

 

[chadd]

Re: Thin brittle output

You might want to check that the color codes on the wiring may be different and isn't really "right". Alternatively, check the value of the pots. If they are too high, you may be able to find some lower value pots to thicken up the tone.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

You might want to check that the color codes on the wiring may be different and isn't really "right". Alternatively, check the value of the pots. If they are too high, you may be able to find some lower value pots to thicken up the tone.

I did go back to cts 250k because the 500k whoa so brittle!

I did get a good sound out of them with the coil split switch on/on/on

But I can't reproduce that sound without the switch.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

Seems to me that you got something wrong on the DP3T on/on/on switch(es).

Ultra-nasty, icepick-y thin sounds are symptomatic of parallel, out-of-phase interconnection of the coils of a humbucking pickup.

Series, out-of-phase can be kinda interesting through an overdriven valve amplifier in a Brian May sort of way.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Thin brittle output

Yep, I reckon you got the full output only once you connected the mini toggles.

What wire colours did you have attached where originally.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

Yep, I reckon you got the full output only once you connected the mini toggles.

What wire colours did you have attached where originally.

I have tried the following using Basic Strat wiring with a single tone pot. Vol & Tone are 250k

Black to 5 way - Green / Bare to Ground - White/Red soldered and capped

Red to 5 way - Green / Bare to Ground - White/Black soldered and capped

Green to 5 way - Black / Bare to Ground - Red/White soldered and capped

All sounded similar thin low power no meat to the tone. I bypassed the pots and went direct to out... Made my ears bleed... Heavy gain distortion low output and a tone that made my cats hair stand on end.

Desperate I introduced a DPDT on/on/on switch to see if I could tell anything by coil tapping it.

Black to 5 way - Green / Bare to ground - Red / White soldered to center lug on DPDT - Bottom lug to ground

Sounded horrible in two positions but in the third position... Creamy powerful tone...just awesome!

Since the other two positions are unusable I want to remove the DPDT... But it went right back to sounding like crap.

Thanks

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

The way you describe your wiring sounds correct. But...

The fact that in one position on your DPDT you get "creamy powerful tone" and in the other two positions you get thin tells me that in that one position you are getting series and the other positions as well as without the switch you are getting either split or parallel. The tone WON'T fatten up going from series to either split or parallel so when you had it wired without the DPDT you DIDN'T have it in series (even though it would seem wired correctly). You DO have something wrong. The good news is that since you were able to get the usual powerful tone from your pup, it is not defective. And with correct wiring you should be able to get the sound you are after if it is wired correctly.

There are many things that could be wrong. The best thing at this point would be for you to take several clear pics of your wiring from different angles that show every wire connection. We'll be able to give you some advice at that point.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

Thank you very much...I will get the pics this evening.

I thought Series/Parallel only mattered if I had more than 1 pickup active...I assume that is incorrect.

Is there anyway with a multimeter to determine what might be going wrong? I have no idea how to use one...but if someone can point me to a way to test each wire to determine if the pickup is wired as expected.

Please also note as described in my original post...I have both a JB Jr. AND a Pearly Gates and both are exhibiting the same behaviour.

I am going to take everything out of the signal chain and wire the pickup right to the output...I want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

I am going to take everything out of the signal chain and wire the pickup right to the output...I want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

That is a good idea.

When you have the pup disconnected, with your multimeter set to read ohms (up to 20k ohms), put one lead on the black wire and the other lead on the white wire (this is the slug coil). You should get a reading of a little over 4k ohms on the PG. You should get a similar reading when reading between the red and green wires. With the leads connected to the green and black wires and the red and white wires twisted together and isolated, you should get the sum of the other two readings (about 8.2k ohms).

If these are the results that you actually get, there is nothing wrong with the pup but there is definitely something wrong with your wiring.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

In lieu of the absence of photographs of the defective wiring, let's have a quick recapitulation.

I did get a good sound out of them with the coil split switch on/on/on

I can't reproduce that sound without the switch.

DR Ron, how many DP3T on/on/on switches did you have have in your semi-functional circuit?

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

When my semi-functional circuit was giving me a great tone...

I had a Pearly Gates Humbucker at the bridge - wired to the selector, then to DPDT on/on/on

I had a Rose Rubusto strat reverse wound start middle pickup wired to the selector.

I had a JB Jr. Humbucker at the Neck position wired to the selector.

The selector output was wired to the volume pot (250K) then directly to the output.

I need to de-emphasize that both humbuckers are exhibiting the same thin ice pick tone.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

Okay.

Why are the two Duncan pickups wired in reverse phase with respect to each other?

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Thin brittle output

Thank you very much...I will get the pics this evening.

I thought Series/Parallel only mattered if I had more than 1 pickup active...I assume that is incorrect.

Is there anyway with a multimeter to determine what might be going wrong? I have no idea how to use one...but if someone can point me to a way to test each wire to determine if the pickup is wired as expected.

Please also note as described in my original post...I have both a JB Jr. AND a Pearly Gates and both are exhibiting the same behaviour.

I am going to take everything out of the signal chain and wire the pickup right to the output...I want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Series/parallel matters whenever you have more than one coil active. It can apply to 2 pickups or two coils of one humbucker.

Parallel sounds a lot like a humless coil split.

I would wager that you should check the coils, and especially your connection between red and white.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

Thin sound, only audible with extremely high amplification and, yet, still quiet, thin and screechy suggests poor grounding of pickups.

Engaging the coil split switch could be the only time that any part of the PG is properly grounded.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

I will re-wire them from scratch tonight...and take pictures...and post multimeter results.

Thank you so very much for your time.

Interesting on the grounding...that may be the problem.

Question...I am soldering an extension wire to the Green Bare combo and soldering that wire to the pot casing...is that okay to do? or do I need to keep the green and bare separately soldered to the pot?

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

I prefer not to twist the green and bare wires together just in case it becomes necessary to reverse anything.

Extending is not a problem, provided that it is done tidily and the solder joint insulated.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Thin brittle output

Time to jump on my hobby horse! )

IME and IMHO, old school designs like the Pearly Gates need an old school playing context to deliver their goodness. I'm not talking only about the guitar, effects and amp but also about... the cable used to plug the axe.

FWIW, here are some excerpts of the OLD Duncan FAQ (those available online ten or twelve years ago):

234.
7. Cables:
A. guitar cords and length.
The length and conductor used in making guitar cords can determine brightness of your instrument.

228.
Capacitors can be used to reduce brightness in a pickup by soldering one side to ground and the other to the hot output.

291. How do I get more bass out of my pickup?
First I would turn the treble control counter clock-wise to knock off the high end of a pickup. You can also solder one side of a capacitor to the hot terminal of a pickup and solder the other side to ground. I would start with low values until you find the desired roll-off.

As a matter of fact, if the cable used to plug the guitar is a "low capacitance" one (and causes a bright sound), a permanent low value cap between the hot point and ground of the jack output will help to tame the annoying brightness.
Each time 150pf are added, it's as if the cable was 1m longer and the tone progressively shifts from bright highs to prominent upper mids.

Example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2sjeVQpS94 (after 7:16 for humbuckers).

When I used PG's, I was happy with a cable of 6m / 1000picofarad (=1nanofarad = 0.001µ). It made the sound meaty and thick.

I wouldn't try directly a 1n cap, though: as the rest of the wiring is already capacitive. 500pf should be enough for starter. Styroflex caps are tonally satisfying for such a use. And a capacitor costs a few cents.

Good luck!

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

Thank you very much for your replies.

Okay I took measurements with a multimeter and all the numbers check out. I did the standard start wiring from scratch. It sounded a little better in the fact that it now had some lower frequency content...but that damn shrill upper mid...UGH! I tore out all of the wiring in the guitar and wired both hum buckers and the sc mid directly to the out put jack and wired in the DPDT on/on/on for coil spitting the Humbuckers. That was a step in the right direction but that shrill was still there, but it was a little less pronounced and the rest of the range filled up nicely. Running clean I could almost live with the tone...but the minute I added some dirt that shrill distorted so very terribly.

Im sorry for wasting everyones time...but they are going in the trash. I think at this point Im trying to make the pickup sound different than what it was designed for.

Back to the drawing board. What a waste!

I sincerely appreciate all of your time and suggestions.

Advice: Don't assume because it sounds good in a YouTube review...that it will sound good in your system.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

You never did declare which model of Squier Stratocaster you were working on. The intrinsic acoustic properties of the host instrument might explain a good deal.

No mention was made of amplification. You could be using extreme high gain with the EQ settings scooped to ****. You could be using a digital model of extreme high gain, scooped to ****. This is significant.

Pickups do not magically imprint their designed tonality onto any given host instrument. Things have to work together to achieve the overall result.