This guitar is a dud...what would you do?

[Top-L]

A couple weeks ago I bought an ESP M-1000 guitar from Pro Audio Star.

I really like the way the guitar looks, and I got a great deal on it, BUT after a couple weeks of truss rod adjustments, I realize I can't get the guitar set up with a reasonable action without buzzing. (This guitar is not nearly as good as the cheaper M-400 I bought prior.)

I relax the truss rod, the string distance gets greater, but inexplicably there is still fret buzz in the lower frets (3-7). And the open A buzzes, even though the nut appears to be relatively high.

There is alot of relief, strings are pretty far off the board, and yet there is still buzz. And even with buzz in the lower frets, if I lower the bridge to get a reasonable action up high, now there is also buzz in the higher frets.

Use the fret rocker to see if there are any high frets, and only found a very mild discrepancy way high up on the treble side of neck where there isnt a buzzing problem.

I've been adjusting truss rods and setting up guitars for 25+ years, this guitar has me stumped. Visual sighting (and string fretting) of the neck shows what appears to be gradual relief, yet there is still lots of buzzing. I think that there is some mild backbow built into the neck in the 1-5 range, that the truss rod isn't able to overcome.

Furthermore, this guitar shipped with a non-standard and used Floyd Rose bar which is always wobbly and leads me to believe it is a return.

SO... what are my options?


The guitar is still in the 30day return period, but PAS has a 15% restocking + return shipping, which would very likely be around $200 lost.

The other option is to get the guitar Plekked which will take a month and cost around $250+s/h. I dont think a normal fret level will solve the problem.

Another option is to try to pursue a warranty claim. I don't think it can be set up to factory spec without inexplicable buzzing somewhere.

I'm angry at ProAudioStar for selling me a customer return as new (and their crazy restocking fee), and myself for not identifying this problem earlier (because pretty guitar) and being lured into the sale because of a good deal.

I'm leaning towards getting the guitar plekked, although I'm concerned that this won't fix the issue.

 

[Hsb]

I know you said yiuve set up guitars for years, but may not hurt to have someone else lay some eyes on it. They may be able to see something you arent seeing.

 

[Clint 55]

Unless you're positive that the truss rod is defective and isn't allowing a continuous bow, it's the frets. By the nature of manufacturing, where they just stick them in, no new guitar has level frets. Some end up setting up ok and some won't. A pro quality level should fix it - hand or plek.

 

[Top-L]

Unless you're positive that the truss rod is defective and isn't allowing a continuous bow, it's the frets. By the nature of manufacturing, where they just stick them in, no new guitar has level frets. Some end up setting up ok and some won't. A pro quality level should fix it - hand or plek.

I think you're right.

I've leveled guitars myself, but not one that is brand new. I'd rather have a plek do it surgically to remove as little fret material as possible, but I know hand done can be as good.

 

[Nicad27]

The guitar is still in the 30day return period, but PAS has a 15% restocking + return shipping, which would very likely be around $200 lost.

Did you talk to them? It would be pretty messed up if they expected you to pay a restocking fee for a defective guitar. They should at least exchange or give you full credit if they won’t give you your money back.

 

[nexion218]

Open A buzzing -> NOT (just) the frets. I'd look around the locking nut. Floyd equipped ESP/LTD guitars usually have string retainers. Have you tried tightening it a bit? Even though it's a locking nut, sometimes there are some issues as the strings leave the nut towards the headstock and it creates a weird, sitar like buzz. Though its usually the thinner unwound strings. What about radius? Even though usually it is not a problem, I have one guitar on which I had to shim one of the saddles to match the board radius properly and make it playable. Sorry if you've checked these boyes before, I'm just trying to be heloful...

 

[Top-L]

Open A buzzing -> NOT (just) the frets. I'd look around the locking nut. Floyd equipped ESP/LTD guitars usually have string retainers. Have you tried tightening it a bit? Even though it's a locking nut, sometimes there are some issues as the strings leave the nut towards the headstock and it creates a weird, sitar like buzz. Though its usually the thinner unwound strings. What about radius? Even though usually it is not a problem, I have one guitar on which I had to shim one of the saddles to match the board radius properly and make it playable. Sorry if you've checked these boyes before, I'm just trying to be heloful...

I've had to shim a floyd before.

On this guitar, I believe the neck is 14" and a Floyd without shims is... 12"? Thats a possibility, but the guitar is outside the range that shims would make a difference.

Re: open A buzzing. Its only on hard picking. The nut does not appear low, it could actually be the "sitar"ing effect you've mentioned. Ive encountered that a couple times over 25 years. Or it could be hitting fret 2 or 3.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Did you talk to them? It would be pretty messed up if they expected you to pay a restocking fee for a defective guitar. They should at least exchange or give you full credit if they won’t give you your money back.

This is what I’m thinking too

 

[Securb]

If you return it I would not mention any truss adjustments you made

 

[Top-L]

If you return it I would not mention any truss adjustments you made

Thats probably a good idea.

IMO, most new guitars, especially 1K ones should come with reasonable playability without any buzzing. This is set at 2.0mm on the bass side, 12th fret, and its still buzzing on 5th and 7th. I can add more relief, but then I have to lower the bridge and the upper frets start fretting out.

Whats weird is that it appears the truss rod is adding normal relief.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Pleking is no better than hand leveling. And in fact, I have had to do leveling on just about every guitar I've seen that has been pleked. I'm definitely not into plek from a player's perspective. From the manufacturer's perspective, it probably saves them a lot of time which equates to a huge cost savings, even after considering the cost of the machinery.

In your case, I would call ProAudioStar and let them know that the guitar appears to be a return...not new as you were led to believe. And you can see why it was originally returned because it has a string buzz that can't easily be corrected and a non-standard/used trem arm.

Under these conditions you should demand that they make an even exchange and cover the return shipping. If they won't do it, threaten to make some big waves. The FTC has strict rules on false advertising and the internet is a powerful tool for letting people (potential customers) know what kind of business they run and how they treat customers.

 

[Mincer]

I would contact them. Don't discuss your attempts to fix it, and they might possibly waive the fee (you'd still be out shipping). They will probably bend your direction to keep a customer (or prevent a bad review). Unless you are head-over-heels in love with that particular guitar, it might not be worth the additional expense, just because the experience is already bad.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Dave,
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but would you post the wiring diagram of your Do-It-All wiring scheme for an HH guitar. I can't seem to find it anywhere. I'll copy and paste it somewhere so I can always access it to help other forumites seeking a good usable HH wiring scheme.

 

[Top-L]

Pleking is no better than hand leveling. And in fact, I have had to do leveling on just about every guitar I've seen that has been pleked. I'm definitely not into plek from a player's perspective. From the manufacturer's perspective, it probably saves them a lot of time which equates to a huge cost savings, even after considering the cost of the machinery.

In your case, I would call ProAudioStar and let them know that the guitar appears to be a return...not new as you were led to believe. And you can see why it was originally returned because it has a string buzz that can't easily be corrected and a non-standard/used trem arm.

Under these conditions you should demand that they make an even exchange and cover the return shipping. If they won't do it, threaten to make some big waves. The FTC has strict rules on false advertising and the internet is a powerful tool for letting people (potential customers) know what kind of business they run and how they treat customers.

This is good advice, but they don't have any more of this guitar in stock, so I'd be asking for a return, not an exchange.

At this point, not sure I want to risk another guitar from them.

What I learned about PAS... When I bought this guitar, they had a new one listed, and a used one with used pricing. As soon as I bought the new guitar, BOTH the new and old went out of stock, leading me to believe they were the same guitar. Which means that any guitar on their site that shows a "used" version of the guitar is probably a customer return. The new one may well be the same guitar, just sold with a factory warranty.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Wow. That's false advertising. They could get into a lot of trouble doing that kinda stuff...selling used/customer returns as new.
I would still ask them for a refund and return shipping.
And, I would never buy from them again. Even if they have great prices/deals, it's not worth the headache or other charges you my have if there are problems with the order.

 

[Ascension]

Unless you're positive that the truss rod is defective and isn't allowing a continuous bow, it's the frets. By the nature of manufacturing, where they just stick them in, no new guitar has level frets. Some end up setting up ok and some won't. A pro quality level should fix it - hand or plek.

Maybe it's because i have owned and played mostly Carvin Kiesels since the early 1990's but I refuse to accept this. Every single one of the these guitars I have ever bought new was perfection in the set up and fret work out of the box and so have the PRS and US Chicago Custom Washburn guitars I have owned . Few of the Carvin Kiesels in fact I had to RAISE the action not because of buzz but because it was so low I simply found them hard to play.
On this guitar I would fight with the seller for a replacement as this item is defective.

 

[Top-L]

Wow. That's false advertising. They could get into a lot of trouble doing that kinda stuff...selling used/customer returns as new.
I would still ask them for a refund and return shipping.
And, I would never buy from them again. Even if they have great prices/deals, it's not worth the headache or other charges you my have if there are problems with the order.

I agree.

When I saw both of them go out of stock at the same time, I knew it was fishy. Incidentally, the price I got on the "new" one was 60 more than the used. So I figure I paid 60 more for a warranty. I'm not broken up about that. The guitar otherwise could pass for new, with exception of the wonky bar.

My guess is that their business model is to sell customer returns as used. At that point they don't have a warranty, and it may give them an advantage with suppliers. But selling a customer return as new...is shady. OTH, a guitar store does that all the time with floor merchandise so its not unprecedented. Musician Friend returns are shipped to Guitar Centers and put on the wall.

I'm going to use the truss to straighten the neck under tension, and measure to see if its truly straight or if there are any peaks or valleys. The truss rod appears to work properly afaik. If its just a matter of it needing a level, I will either do it myself or have it sent for a plek. Frankly almost any new guitar needs a level. I am enjoying that the M400 is playing really well without one, but its not perfect either.

Guitars I've leveled have either been old or cheap, I kinda want this one to be perfect. I can level to the 90-95% range of playability, but I'm not going to kid myself that I can do as good a job as someone who has done hundreds and is motivated to do perfect work.

Luthiers are a mixed bag. I've gotten as much dishonest or lazy work as I've had good. Which is why I learned to level myself.

 

[Mincer]

Dave,
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but would you post the wiring diagram of your Do-It-All wiring scheme for an HH guitar. I can't seem to find it anywhere. I'll copy and paste it somewhere so I can always access it to help other forumites seeking a good usable HH wiring scheme.

This is the original blog.

 

[Artie]

Pleking is no better than hand leveling. And in fact, I have had to do leveling on just about every guitar I've seen that has been pleked.

I wasn't going to chime in here, because all I can do is parrot my luthier friend. But that is exactly what he'd say. He's had to redo many new plek'd guitars.

 

[Top-L]

I wasn't going to chime in here, because all I can do is parrot my luthier friend. But that is exactly what he'd say. He's had to redo many new plek'd guitars.

FWIW, I believe this is because guitar necks change or settle over time. I believe they do the most changing in the first year. That means that if a guitar is built and rushed through a plek process, and there is another 6-12 months before it finds a buyer, the plek job will no longer be accurate. I dont think there is a problem with plekking, just that the guitar changes.

I've had old necks plekked and the action and tone (everywhere on the neck) is unparalleled... for the first 6-12 months afterwards. Beyond that, mild shifting of the neck occurs and you can't tell a difference between a hand level and plek.

Which reminds me... why I shouldnt get this new guitar plekked. If the neck is straight and the frets have only a mild dip or peak, I will level it myself with then intention to get it plekked at the 3yr mark. If there is something more than a mild deviation, I will just return the guitar.

I believe in the plek process, it lets you get the lowest possible action without sacrificing tone, everywhere on the neck. Hand work you can go just as low, but there will be a few areas where tone is impacted. All imo.