Vintage pickups

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Re: Vintage pickups

As far as their electrical differences are concerned, the brighter of the two could be made to sound like the darker of the two with specific EQ adjustments, but the Seth Lover is also unpotted, which means a portion of it's resulting sound owes to the microphonics, which can't be duplicated with EQ alone, since the degree of microphonic input is dependent on the environment, and how loud the guitar amp is cranked up.

It would be interesting to find out if a '59 could be modified to become microphonic in the same way that a Seth Lover is microphonic. It's hard to tell which specific parts of the unpotted pickup results in it having a particular "unpotted" tone. Maybe it's the wax free windings, maybe it's the wax free cover, maybe it's everything combined.

You write as if microphonic feedback is a good thing? http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/feedback-vs-microphonic-noise
 
Re: Vintage pickups

I'll be honest, I've learned a lot from reading the comments. Thanks everyone! Let's try and keep it civil though, please.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
 
Re: Vintage pickups

Ultimately, I believe what you hear is what you hear. If a pickup gives you a sound you enjoy through your rig, it's a winner. If it cost 50 bucks or 400, it's a win. My preferences aren't anyone else's. I'd love to try some boutique stuff, but I can't justify the cost. But if I had the money, I'd be all over it. That's why I'm such a Duncan fan. Great stuff, reasonable prices, pretty much everything I'd need. But I'm no crazy fanboy. I'm sure some of those boutique guys' stuff would blow my mind. I just can't (or won't) afford it. But i don't begrudge them charging what they need to charge to keep in business.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

True, and since they're all snowflakes, you can not say that a certain delta between coils is authentic, or a targeted fixed turn count of each coil represents anything other than one plausible embodiment. What I find funny is that over the years, if you add up all the different brands and models, there are MORE PAF replica pickup models available than there were original PAF's! That means we are literally dealing in hypothetical iterations that are known NOT to have occurred. People are making what they speculate might have been a happy accident, but that never actually existed. They're also targeting some fixed point of aging. A 50's PAF in 1959? Or in 1971 when some famous recording used that guitar? Or in 2016, what that guitar sounds like today?

Thats not been my experience of the good PAF clone winders. They have more often than not been pickup repair guys first. They handle quite a few pickups....measure them for K, resonant frequency etc. Observe the wind patterns (or at least the final coil shape) and then if there are dead coils they can actually look at the actual wind pattern within the coil and get wire gauge measurements. James from ReWind is one who has had extensive experience with PAF's and can tell what spool certain PAF bobbins were wound on - as they have characteristics unique to that position. Another critical measurement is the wire tension. Bill Megala from ECP is another winder who has done a lot of research and finds that wire tension in his opinion is more important than turn count in the final tonal analysis.
I know of very few winders who have not had this experience before doing clones.

And practically all of them look at all the same level of detail that Throbak does (including quite a few that do their own custom castings of magnets and covers)
 
Re: Vintage pickups

A winder can (and will) say "I'm aware of how vintage pickups were tensioned, layered / scatterd, shaped, and what kind of wire they used, how the wire was drawn, the insulation types, what the final coil capacitance was, inductance, resonant peak, Q factor, etc." and all that tells me is that they are aware of these factors in an abstract sense. I have no confidence they properly observe all these factors, or reproduced them. Given the random nature of original PAF construction, the truth is that you'd need to know what the general range of these factors would be, since no single value would be representative.

As a practical matter, nobody would destroy a perfectly good PAF in order to learn about it's construction. That would be like burning money. So it's like Schrodinger's cat; you have a working PAF and can know the electrical values of a PAF, but not the physical properties of the wind and wire, or you have a broken PAF, and you can know all about the wire, but nothing about the electrical properties, but you can't know both, unless you destroy a valuable authentic PAF pickup in the process. So I have a reason to be suspicious of anyone who claims to be intimately or extensively familiar with these details, and yet doesn't elaborate on exactly how they gathered this information to begin with. I mean, people have even been known to occasionally lie from time to time.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

it's like Schrodinger's cat; you have a working PAF and can know the electrical values of a PAF, but not the physical properties of the wind and wire, or you have a broken PAF, and you can know all about the wire, but nothing about the electrical properties, but you can't know both, unless you destroy a valuable authentic PAF pickup in the process
I love how you make absolute statements like this, when you have no actual knowledge about what it can or can't be learned from taken apart a p'up with one or even both dead coils without knowing the reason why they're dead to start with. Gimme a break, will ya?
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

A winder can (and will) say "I'm aware of how vintage pickups were tensioned, layered / scatterd, shaped, and what kind of wire they used, how the wire was drawn, the insulation types, what the final coil capacitance was, inductance, resonant peak, Q factor, etc." and all that tells me is that they are aware of these factors in an abstract sense. I have no confidence they properly observe all these factors, or reproduced them. Given the random nature of original PAF construction, the truth is that you'd need to know what the general range of these factors would be, since no single value would be representative.

As a practical matter, nobody would destroy a perfectly good PAF in order to learn about it's construction. That would be like burning money. So it's like Schrodinger's cat; you have a working PAF and can know the electrical values of a PAF, but not the physical properties of the wind and wire, or you have a broken PAF, and you can know all about the wire, but nothing about the electrical properties, but you can't know both, unless you destroy a valuable authentic PAF pickup in the process. So I have a reason to be suspicious of anyone who claims to be intimately or extensively familiar with these details, and yet doesn't elaborate on exactly how they gathered this information to begin with. I mean, people have even been known to occasionally lie from time to time.

Firstly I agree with Lt.

Secondly, a 'general spec' PAF is never made. There is not a PAF clone made which is wholly representative - why on earth you would think this is beyond me. It is often made to be directly representative of 1 particular pickup - a pickup either directly measured by the winder but not their own, or one owned by the winder. In both cases they will be pickups that have certain outstanding characteristics. Hence PAF clone winders have a similar level of variability of actual PAF's.
When PAF's were wound there were 3 or 4 coils wound at once on each machine. Certain coils have very distinct final shapes and also wind patterns depending on what arm the coil was loaded to. Its easy to document final coil shape with measureable data like K, resonant frequency etc. Then with the odd dead coil you can see the wind patterns present within coils of that same outer shape.

Winders who (like Throbak) own the actual machines that wound original coils can get that machine to quite consistently churn out coils the way they did in the 50's. Its all about the way they are fed and adjusted. If you know the way the coils are constructed.

You keep digging yourself into a hole......making more and more absurd assertions based on nothing at all.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

Thats not been my experience of the good PAF clone winders...I know of very few winders who have not had this experience before doing clones...
For the record I wasn't referring to any specific winder. What I'm saying is that in aggregate there are more PAF style pickups than actual PAF's, so the pure science dictates that without overlap, they are recreating pickups that can't have existed.

And I do happen to know a lot of pickup winders who make PAF style pickups that do not have the first hand experience of those other winders you mentioned. But that could be because I'm in the business and I'm aware of all these guys. It's not an insult, they all might make great sounding pickups. I'm just saying there's a near exponential number of variations possible, when you include gauss, magnet type, bobbin size, bobbin material (there are lots of pickups sold as PAF-style with different nylons, ABS, polycarbonate, etc) let alone turn count, turn offset screw vs slug, tension, wound on a Leesona (most makers do not have one nor have they seen nor operated one, so they have to approximate the pattern)

And there simply weren't as many PAF's made as there are PAF style pickups made today. Not an insult just a funny observation.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

I agree there are a lot of PAF style pickups out there. But PAF style isn't PAF clone. All of Duncan's offerings are PAF style, none are PAF clone.

I think there was a list of about 300 boutique winders that were detailed in a thread on MLP not a short while back - almost all of them I had heard of. I probably have samples from 20 or more of those winders.
Even in boutique offerings whilst all will have some form of PAF-like offering - not all actually attempt to make PAF clones. Zhangbucker is by his own admission one of them. He doesn't duplicate many of the features - has no interest in most of it, but does in a general way to some if it gives the tonal results he is after. Simply doing offset coils, or not potting a pickup is not PAF clone. Although it might have been good enough 15 or 20 years ago.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

PAF (patent applied for) were humbucking pickups manufactured by Gibson between 1955 and 1962. They as a whole had a wide variety of tonal qualities due to limited process control. PAF has become a selling buzz word that finds its way into the description of many pickups and has no meaning regarding a particular pickup. A more useful descriptor would be this pickup sounds like the pickup used by artist x on y album.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

I agree there are a lot of PAF style pickups out there. But PAF style isn't PAF clone. All of Duncan's offerings are PAF style, none are PAF clone.

I think there was a list of about 300 boutique winders that were detailed in a thread on MLP not a short while back - almost all of them I had heard of. I probably have samples from 20 or more of those winders.
Even in boutique offerings whilst all will have some form of PAF-like offering - not all actually attempt to make PAF clones. Zhangbucker is by his own admission one of them. He doesn't duplicate many of the features - has no interest in most of it, but does in a general way to some if it gives the tonal results he is after. Simply doing offset coils, or not potting a pickup is not PAF clone. Although it might have been good enough 15 or 20 years ago.

I don't know about that. Our Skinnerburst set is a direct clone of a particular PAF set from a particular guitar. The 59 is based on a pickup on Jeff Beck's 59 LP.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

I'd like to see a list of specific things that make some of the popular "PAF style" pickups different from a "PAF clone", and then for each item I'd like to see some explanation as to how that difference impacts the final tone or performance of the pickup. A good example would be a plastic spacer versus maple. Through what physical means would a plastic spacer alter the tone?
 
Re: Vintage pickups

^ Did you not read the link I put up.

And as you have yet to accept that any wind based characteristics affect tone despite evidence any knowledgeable electronics person would immediately accept, why would I bother wasting my time.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

I don't know about that. Our Skinnerburst set is a direct clone of a particular PAF set from a particular guitar. The 59 is based on a pickup on Jeff Beck's 59 LP.

How far did you go though??
Did you look at the coil geometry for each one, how full the bobbins were? Did you get special spools of wire with the right gauges for being maunfactured in 59. Did you test the magnets in the pickups and get special castings to match the precise composition in that pickup. This is the level that is really required now for PAF clone.....the bar has been raised.

I wouldn't have thought that much poking 'under the hood' would have been allowed. I would have guessed you would have used the materials you use regularly, but in a way the gets the tone as close as you could.

It would be interesting to know exactly how far you did go.......and whether I have to change my view on that pickup.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

^ Did you not read the link I put up.

And as you have yet to accept that any wind based characteristics affect tone despite evidence any knowledgeable electronics person would immediately accept, why would I bother wasting my time.

I did ask for a list; a list which should be fresh on your mind, as an "PAF clone" enthusiast. "wind based characteristics" would be but a single item on that list, and would warrant discussion as much as anything else. By focusing on "wind based characteristics" are you implying that none of the other distinctions between a "PAF clone" and a "PAF style" pickup matter?

I did look at that website, but I'm not having a discussion with a website.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

Let's be careful of the forum rules here guys.

In regards to a "list", I see no reason why AlexR should have to relist something that is already listed elsewhere.
 
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