What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

[phil_104]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Here is a video by Yamaha Musical instrument corporation, studying the effects of modified wood in guitar making, and how density affected the tone.



Now here is the entire study, on the effects of wood in an instrument.

http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/research/are/

Think that's not legit? Here's a research paper from the US library of Medicine and Biological studies, detailing the study of 452 species of wood, in order to gauge the application in musical instrument making, more specifically soundboards, to determine which sustainable options are available. One of the key variable is the sonic property of the wood.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22280703

Now, I just picked that one because it was one of the first google suggestions to pop up. There are hundreds upon hundreds of studies.

There is your science. People study this type of thing every day. Wood makes a difference.

Now, can we all just accept like that rational, intelligent adults?

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Here is a video by Yamaha Musical instrument corporation, studying the effects of modified wood in guitar making, and how density affected the tone.



Now here is the entire study, on the effects of wood in an instrument.

http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/research/are/

Think that's not legit? Here's a research paper from the US library of Medicine and Biological studies, detailing the study of 452 species of wood, in order to gauge the application in musical instrument making, more specifically soundboards, to determine which sustainable options are available. One of the key variable is the sonic property of the wood.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22280703

Now, I just picked that one because it was one of the first google suggestions to pop up. There are hundreds upon hundreds of studies.

There is your science. People study this type of thing every day. Wood makes a difference.

Now, can we all just accept like that rational, intelligent adults?

You're kidding me right? First that study was done for a company promoting its product. Hardly unbiased. If it is indeed the first one you came across perhaps you should have looked longer for something a bit more credible. Secondly Fretboards and their effect or lack of effect is not discussed in that so called study at all. You are aware that we are discussing fret boards not acoustic sound boards or the acoustics of an auditorium that has a treated wooden floor right? I don't think anyone here would argue that acoustic guitar sound boards don't effect tone. Of course they do because they are a thin flat piece of tone wood that is designed to do exactly that.

But, to try to say that (A) An acoustic guitar sound board effects tone and that (B) Acoustic soundboards are made of wood so (C) therefore all wood on all guitars effects tone is the same as saying (A) Tommy is a boy (B) Tommy is bad (C) Therefore all boys are bad. It's called a false tautology.

The science you cite is motivationaly suspect at the very least but even worse it doesn't apply to this topic which once again is fretboards. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but that's not a study. It's an advertisement. I really wish folks would believe me when I say that I really don't care who is right or who is wrong concerning this. But, Until I actually see some empirical data that tells me my perceptions are wrong I just have to say that those of us who don't hear what you are talking about are just as believable as those of you who say you do.

 

[phil_104]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

You're kidding me right? First that study was done payed for by a company promoting its product. Hardly unbiased. Secondly Fretboards and their effect or lack of effect is not discussed in that so called study at all. You are aware that we are discussing fret boards not acoustic sound boards or the acoustics of an auditorium that has a treated wooden floor right? I don't think anyone here would argue that acoustic guitar sound boards don't effect tone. Of course they do because they are a thin flat piece of tone wood that is designed to do exactly that.

But, to try to say that (A) An acoustic guitar sound board effects tone and that (B) Acoustic soundboards are made of wood so (C) therefore all wood on all guitars effects tone is the same as saying (A) Tommy is a boy (B) Tommy is bad (C) Therefore all boys are bad. It's called a false tautology.

The science you cite is motivationaly suspect at the very least but even worse it doesn't apply to this topic which once again is fretboards.

I don't say this very often dude, but trying to exchange ideas with you is painful.

An instrument vibrates as a whole, soundboard, neck, body and fretboard included. It's in the nature of wood. I've been fortunate enough to have the chance to talk to some very interesting luthiers from Gibson, Taylor, Larivée, as well as some very competent repair people with years of experience working with instruments. Many discussions have be brought forth about wood, and I have learned a lot. I have yet to encounter anybody with credibility in the musical instrument business who questions the impact of fretboard wood.

Also, just because it's so painful not to state : you call out the "woodies" for not bringing forth any science. Where is your science? Where are your clinically measured facts?

I've posted it on the last page, I'll post it again :

Listen dudes, some people don't get it, some people don't want to get it. If some of you want to believe there is no difference, that's cool. I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. But you can still live a happy and healthy life. I'll just keep getting guitars that sound good to my ears while considering the tone woods involved and narrowing my searches based on general tonal traits of said materials, and others can carry on going to guitar stores, standing in front of the guitar wall and commenting loudly between themselves that you'd be a moron to pay extra for a guitar with a high grade ebony fretboard rather than using pieces of 1960s art deco table tops. At the end of the day I'll be happy playing what I have, and you'll be happy being convinced you uncovered a ploy to pull the wool over guitarists eyes when it comes to guitar construction. I'll be right and you'll be wrong, but we will both be happy, and that's all that matters to me. Because I care.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

 

[Zhaggy]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

But, to try to say that (A) An acoustic guitar sound board effects tone and that (B) Acoustic soundboards are made of wood so (C) therefore all wood on all guitars effects tone is the same as saying (A) Tommy is a boy (B) Tommy is bad (C) Therefore all boys are bad. It's called a false tautology.

Oh boy I was just waiting for either of you to come and try to falsify this. You are one of those guys that just couldn't see the truth if it kicked you in the nuts (assuming you have those). Here is your science and yet you can't follow even your own rules.

Nice try on the logic thing. Using fancy words like tautology and all. True that you example is false proposition but it has nothing to do with tautologies. I highly doubt that you even know what tautology really means. If you insist on trying to find a fancy word to call your reasoning it would be "false syllogism" but that would be also wrong so just give it up.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

I highly doubt that you even know what tautology really means. If you insist on trying to find a fancy word to call your reasoning it would be "false syllogism" but that would be also wrong so just give it up.

Here, maybe this will help you figure it out. I don't know about you but I already passed my logic course.


"Tautologies refer to logical forms which can never be false. Let's take the second example: "The couch is red and soft." If the couch were actually blue, then the statement "The couch is red and soft" would be false. So "A and B" is not a tautology - if either 'A' or 'B' is false (whatever they may stand for), then "A and B" is false. But let's look at another example: "The couch is red or not red". In formal logic, this is represented as 'A or not A'. If the couch is red, then "The couch is red or not red" is true. But if the couch is blue, then it's not red, so "The couch is red or not red" is still true. In fact this is true of any statement of the form "A or not A" - If A is true, "A or not A" is true, but if A is false, then not A is true, so "A or not A" is still true. Therefore, there is no way for "A or not A" to be false. Because of this, we call "A or not A" a tautology".

I didn't say that what he was doing was a tautology. I said that his use of those studies to prove his point were the equivalent to a "false tautology". (A) Guitar sound boards are made of wood. (B) Guitar sound boards vibrate and effect tone. (C) therefore guitar fretboards effect tone. It's a false tautology because even though A and B are true C is never the less unproven and hence logically false.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

This all makes for some cheap entertainment.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

I don't say this very often dude, but trying to exchange ideas with you is painful.

That's because you are trying to do more than exchange ideas. Where as I'm just here to talk about it because it's something to talk about what many do in these discussions is try to convince. That's because you feel a passion for the topic that I don't feel. If you could just talk about it without sending yourself on a mission to convert I'm sure you would feel much less pain.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

This all makes for some cheap entertainment.

That's why I'm here. It entertains me as well.

 

[Zhaggy]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Here, maybe this will help you figure it out. I don't know about you but I already passed my logic course.


"Tautologies refer to logical forms which can never be false. Let's take the second example: "The couch is red and soft." If the couch were actually blue, then the statement "The couch is red and soft" would be false. So "A and B" is not a tautology - if either 'A' or 'B' is false (whatever they may stand for), then "A and B" is false. But let's look at another example: "The couch is red or not red". In formal logic, this is represented as 'A or not A'. If the couch is red, then "The couch is red or not red" is true. But if the couch is blue, then it's not red, so "The couch is red or not red" is still true. In fact this is true of any statement of the form "A or not A" - If A is true, "A or not A" is true, but if A is false, then not A is true, so "A or not A" is still true. Therefore, there is no way for "A or not A" to be false. Because of this, we call "A or not A" a tautology".

I didn't say that what he was doing was a tautology. I said that his use of those studies to prove his point were the equivalent to a "false tautology". (A) Guitar sound boards are made of wood. (B) Guitar sound boards vibrate and effect tone. (C) therefore guitar fretboards effect tone. It's a false tautology because even though A and B are true C is never the less unproven and hence by A and B and hence logically false.

Yes his reasoning was false but again it has nothing to with tautologies. I have passed my logic course as well, but just don't use terms that most here don't understand. And you're just denying the truth with your explanation.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Yes his reasoning was false but again it has nothing to with tautologies. I have passed my logic course as well, but just don't use terms that most here don't understand. And you're just denying the truth with your explanation.

Again, I said "false tautology". And it has everything to do with that. Let's just say you must have had a different professor than I did. And since you're so hung up on my vocabulary why shouldn't I choose any word that does the job best. There are many words I don't know the definition to myself. So what. That doesn't make me stupid. That's when I just look them up. Are you saying I should dumb things down because our fellow posters aren't literate. Got to disagree with that one strongly. I've been having conversations on these forums for a long time and find most members to be pretty sharp and well informed.

 

[phil_104]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

That's because you are trying to do more than exchange ideas. Where as I'm just here to talk about it because it's something to talk about what many do in these discussions is try to convince. That's because you feel a passion for the topic that I don't feel. If you could just talk about it without sending yourself on a mission to convert I'm sure you would feel much less pain.

Naw man, read the message I posted twice. It changes nothing in my world what another guitarist thinks.

The reason it's painful, is because there is a certain type of person out there, who are incredibly rigid when it comes to discussion. They enter a conversation with a certain idea, and will hold onto it until death. You can present them with expert opinion, scientific research, collective observations, and they will not budge because for some reason, they think that their belief holds more weight than all those other factors combined. No matter what you say to them, they will think you are full of it, and trying to push an agenda, or that you are misguided, or uninformed, just like what you think I am trying to do right now. These people will always think that the other person doesn't get it, that the world doesn't understand what they are saying, has biases or doesn't have facts, while completely ignoring that they themselves have biases and ignore the facts.

That's the pain behind talking with you. It's the irony of it all. From what I've read in this thread, it's become painfully obvious that regardless of what was going to be presented on these pages, your stance was not going to change. Leo Fender himself could crawl out of his grave, learn to use Youtube, and send you a private video explaining to you how it makes a difference, backed with scientific proof, and you would not accept it as credible. This is exactly why this is going to be my last comment on the topic. You are going to retort, stating something about me not getting it, or resorting to what ever strategy, so that you will end up feeling like you got the last word and I backed out. You won't get it, and that's fine. I won't answer back, but at least I'll have explained, as eloquently as I can using a language that is not my mother language, why those who are uninformed on the topic, should take this thread with a grain of salt, or a good laugh.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Naw man, read the message I posted twice. It changes nothing in my world what another guitarist thinks.

The reason it's painful, is because there is a certain type of person out there, who are incredibly rigid when it comes to discussion. They enter a conversation with a certain idea, and will hold onto it until death. You can present them with expert opinion, scientific research, collective observations, and they will not budge because for some reason, they think that their belief holds more weight than all those other factors combined. No matter what you say to them, they will think you are full of it, and trying to push an agenda, or that you are misguided, or uninformed, just like what you think I am trying to do right now. These people will always think that the other person doesn't get it, that the world doesn't understand what they are saying, has biases or doesn't have facts, while completely ignoring that they themselves have biases and ignore the facts.

That's the pain behind talking with you. It's the irony of it all. From what I've read in this thread, it's become painfully obvious that regardless of what was going to be presented on these pages, your stance was not going to change. Leo Fender himself could crawl out of his grave, learn to use Youtube, and send you a private video explaining to you how it makes a difference, backed with scientific proof, and you would not accept it as credible. This is exactly why this is going to be my last comment on the topic. You are going to retort, stating something about me not getting it, or resorting to what ever strategy, so that you will end up feeling like you got the last word and I backed out. You won't get it, and that's fine. I won't answer back, but at least I'll have explained, as eloquently as I can using a language that is not my mother language, why those who are uninformed on the topic, should take this thread with a grain of salt, or a good laugh.

:fingersx: Oh! Is that "certain type of person" you are talking about me? By the way your powers of prediction are astounding. You bet I'm going to respond and even though you've said that you don't intend to respond in kind I have to ask the question, why is your intransigence to what I feel has been a reasonable stance on my part any less culpable than my take on your attempts at causing me pain? After all, just because I don't feel the pain doesn't mean that you didn't try to inflict it. We disagree. Wow, that's a surprise. In fact I notice that no one on this entire thread has changed their stand based on anything anyone on both sides of the fence has had to say. So what makes me so special in your eyes. Could it be that I kept responding to you and they didn't? Could it be that you are upset because you couldn't drive me away like you did all the rest who disagree with you? Just because they quit responding doesn't mean they agree with you or that they have changed their minds. What it really means is that there is a big difference between those who are willing to have an open discussion and those who prefer a private conversation with no dissenting opinions.

By the way. From reading what you've had to say your mastery of English seems to be better than most who were born to it.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

I played my guitar today. It sounded good.

 

[The Dali]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

The beauty is that when you play live the audience doesn't care what guitar you are playing, or that's guitar's fretboard material.

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Don't feed the trolls.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

The beauty is that when you play live the audience doesn't care what guitar you are playing, or that's guitar's fretboard material.

+1 Only other guitarists ever give a crap about what gear you play.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

#181

Your intransigence is laughable. Thanks for the entertainment.

So are your retorts.

:fingersx: Oh! Is that "certain type of person" you are talking about me? By the way your powers of prediction are astounding. You bet I'm going to respond and even though you've said that you don't intend to respond in kind I have to ask the question, why is your intransigence to what I feel has been a reasonable stance on my part any less culpable than my take on your attempts at causing me pain? After all, just because I don't feel the pain doesn't mean that you didn't try to inflict it. We disagree. Wow, that's a surprise. In fact I notice that no one on this entire thread has changed their stand based on anything anyone on both sides of the fence has had to say. So what makes me so special in your eyes. Could it be that I kept responding to you and they didn't? Could it be that you are upset because you couldn't drive me away like you did all the rest who disagree with you? Just because they quit responding doesn't mean they agree with you or that they have changed their minds. What it really means is that there is a big difference between those who are willing to have an open discussion and those who prefer a private conversation with no dissenting opinions.

By the way. From reading what you've had to say your mastery of English seems to be better than most who were born to it.

 

[FretFire]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

Naysayer: "SHOW ME SCIENCE!"

Dude: "Here you go. *provides science*"

Naysayer: "*reviews science, sees it supports Dude's outlook* THAT'S NOT SCIENCE, THAT'S MARKETING!"


I can't believe this thread is still going on. If you honestly can't tell a difference in various woods used to build a guitar, then no post you read here is going to help.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What if fretboard wood doesn't matter?

IF we were to agree that fretboard material made no difference, discussion might then turn to the possible contributions of other guitar components (and of course this has happened and continues to happen). Some people say the body shape and/or material makes no difference. So we move on, and always some people will say that the components under discussion make little or no difference (a common theory seems to be that pickups make the biggest difference when the guitar is amplified, some even opine that they are the only thing that does).

So it could be possible that some individuals think that nothing makes any difference except the pickups. If that was the case, why have guitars always sold at an extremely wide range of prices, with pickups being relatively cheap ? Why would some guitar manufacturers source rare and expensive woods ? Just for the looks ? If all guitars sounded basically alike, surely they would all be in the same range of prices and pickups, the major tone-determining element, would be extremely expensive.

Electric guitars have been produced for 60 years, more than enough time for consumers to vote on what they like with their wallets, and manufacturers to experiment with what new ideas may be taken up by the masses and what will be rejected.

To me, this says that some people hear subtle differences amongst the multitude of guitar construction 'recipes', and some don't. Some are happy with a cheaper instrument fitted with better pickups, others search long and hard for combinations that they hear as being better, often expending large sums of money in their quest(s).

I have said this before in relation to gear, and it's been mentioned by others in this thread. If you don't hear the differences, you are lucky, you will attain satisfaction quickly and easily, and without great cost. If you do hear differences, your search may be long and costly. Neither situation is better than the other. It simply depends on how an individual hears (or doesn't hear) the result of a recipe.