whats so good about point to point handwired
- Thread starter cream123
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STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Easier to work on and vintage correct but no tonal differences in 2 like amps with the same components....A good example of this was proven on 2 1973 50 watt 1987 model Marshalls....1 was PTP and the other had the JCM 800 style boards and 73 was a split year for PTP to PCB for Marshalls...Another interesting thing is that everyone loves the 800 series and everyone of those was pcb except for the hardwired pots on some of them...
PTP if not done right can create alot of antenna effect,stray noise,and oscillation problems...The pcb technology is cheaper to make,but could be a more consistent and stable overall circuit,but again it depends on what circuit and the thickness and quality of the board and the components used?
I love working on PTP amps,but I'm every bit ok playing through pcb as long as the amp has the tone...
PTP amps are very expensive as a rule compared to the pcb amp...
cream123 said:
Easier to work on and vintage correct but no tonal differences in 2 like amps with the same components....A good example of this was proven on 2 1973 50 watt 1987 model Marshalls....1 was PTP and the other had the JCM 800 style boards and 73 was a split year for PTP to PCB for Marshalls...Another interesting thing is that everyone loves the 800 series and everyone of those was pcb except for the hardwired pots on some of them...
PTP if not done right can create alot of antenna effect,stray noise,and oscillation problems...The pcb technology is cheaper to make,but could be a more consistent and stable overall circuit,but again it depends on what circuit and the thickness and quality of the board and the components used?
I love working on PTP amps,but I'm every bit ok playing through pcb as long as the amp has the tone...
PTP amps are very expensive as a rule compared to the pcb amp...
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Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
As long as the amp's design is a great one, the differences are minimal. There's no disputing that P to P amps are built better, and can generally take more abuse. The biggest difference is the sonic detail and harmonic content.
P to P amps generally have a bigger and richer sound, which engulfs a room, whereas the PCB amp sounds a little narrower, but has the ability to cram more features into the same space.....they're done this way because large amp companies are concerned with mass production for the lowest dollars.
My two main amps are a PCB Bogner and P to P Matchless. They both have their own sound, but I find more focused gain in PCB amps, and a more 'wide open' and articulate sound out of P to P.
As long as the amp's design is a great one, the differences are minimal. There's no disputing that P to P amps are built better, and can generally take more abuse. The biggest difference is the sonic detail and harmonic content.
P to P amps generally have a bigger and richer sound, which engulfs a room, whereas the PCB amp sounds a little narrower, but has the ability to cram more features into the same space.....they're done this way because large amp companies are concerned with mass production for the lowest dollars.
My two main amps are a PCB Bogner and P to P Matchless. They both have their own sound, but I find more focused gain in PCB amps, and a more 'wide open' and articulate sound out of P to P.
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
the diff is mainly mechanical.
to mount a pcb you have to screw it to the box. as time goes by and you move the amp around, drive around the country in a beatup van the box gets loose eventually. then the box starts to twist the pcb and may cause problems. I have other electrical equipment that broke after moving too much. Never happened to my amp coz I don't move it often.
PTP wirings are soft wires so they don't have this problem.
Heating is another concern. hook-up wires are never over-heated because they are all hanging in the are. the copper tracing in a pcb can get overheated if the board is cheap
my 2cents.
the diff is mainly mechanical.
to mount a pcb you have to screw it to the box. as time goes by and you move the amp around, drive around the country in a beatup van the box gets loose eventually. then the box starts to twist the pcb and may cause problems. I have other electrical equipment that broke after moving too much. Never happened to my amp coz I don't move it often.
PTP wirings are soft wires so they don't have this problem.
Heating is another concern. hook-up wires are never over-heated because they are all hanging in the are. the copper tracing in a pcb can get overheated if the board is cheap
my 2cents.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
GJ.....I normally agree with you on things,but I have to disagree with you on this one from experiences working on alot of PTP and non-PTP PCB Marshall and Fender amps over alot of years....The differences you hear are component differences,and the PCB design isn't a design that isn't built as good as PTP,in fact pcb circuit boards have been around for many many years and much later in amps...The circuit board itself isn't what creates or doesn't create the openess of sound or 3d or better tone you describe....Given the same 2 amps with the same components,you aren't going to distinguish the differences you say you hear....I Know because we actually took 2 73 Marshalls and recorded both of those amps through a studio recording console and there was no tonal differences to speak of with the same components through the same cab and mic'd and from A/B listening of both amps....Tolerences yes....I now own the pcb 1973 Marshall head....I won't say all of the really great components that are on my pcb are crammed on there and the amp has amazing tone,but it is a pain in the a$$ to work on and doesn't have the cool looks of a PTP wired amp....The 73 amp I own basically has the identical pcb as the later JCM 800S....Neither of which I could say ever really suffered reliability problems....Fact is,early Marshalls were unreliable in my experiences by comparison,but it had more to do with the circuit than just how the components were mounted...Early Marshalls suffered most of their problems from speaker ohm mis-matches...
It's the crappy little Crate PCBs that I don't like,but given the circuit,the pcb amps are fine and I just don't buy into the mindset that PTP is better than PCB(It's alot of BS actually and I've played through both)and I do speak from experiences of working on both types of amps....Mainly Fender and Marshalls....
There has been several talks about this topic on several forums and it's always a very hot topic with each side having strong convictions of one being better than the other....I'll agree that it's solely the design and components that matters the most before I'd say PTP is better.....I really don't have a problem with PTP or PCB if the amp has tone!
Gearjoneser said:
GJ.....I normally agree with you on things,but I have to disagree with you on this one from experiences working on alot of PTP and non-PTP PCB Marshall and Fender amps over alot of years....The differences you hear are component differences,and the PCB design isn't a design that isn't built as good as PTP,in fact pcb circuit boards have been around for many many years and much later in amps...The circuit board itself isn't what creates or doesn't create the openess of sound or 3d or better tone you describe....Given the same 2 amps with the same components,you aren't going to distinguish the differences you say you hear....I Know because we actually took 2 73 Marshalls and recorded both of those amps through a studio recording console and there was no tonal differences to speak of with the same components through the same cab and mic'd and from A/B listening of both amps....Tolerences yes....I now own the pcb 1973 Marshall head....I won't say all of the really great components that are on my pcb are crammed on there and the amp has amazing tone,but it is a pain in the a$$ to work on and doesn't have the cool looks of a PTP wired amp....The 73 amp I own basically has the identical pcb as the later JCM 800S....Neither of which I could say ever really suffered reliability problems....Fact is,early Marshalls were unreliable in my experiences by comparison,but it had more to do with the circuit than just how the components were mounted...Early Marshalls suffered most of their problems from speaker ohm mis-matches...
It's the crappy little Crate PCBs that I don't like,but given the circuit,the pcb amps are fine and I just don't buy into the mindset that PTP is better than PCB(It's alot of BS actually and I've played through both)and I do speak from experiences of working on both types of amps....Mainly Fender and Marshalls....
There has been several talks about this topic on several forums and it's always a very hot topic with each side having strong convictions of one being better than the other....I'll agree that it's solely the design and components that matters the most before I'd say PTP is better.....I really don't have a problem with PTP or PCB if the amp has tone!
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STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Again.....You're stereotyping the PCB amp...It depends on the design and the amp....Soldano uses PCB,as do Mesa amps and tons of other amps...Are these amps "chumps" because they are wired PTP? LOL.....:laugh2: :smack:What about the whole Marshall JCM 800 series...All pcb mounted components...
It's the whole boutique mentality over the years that has us all thinking this way....Do I Like PTP? Heck yeah....Is it better tonally? Hmmmmmmmm?
rguser said:the diff is mainly mechanical.
to mount a pcb you have to screw it to the box. as time goes by and you move the amp around, drive around the country in a beatup van the box gets loose eventually. then the box starts to twist the pcb and may cause problems. I have other electrical equipment that broke after moving too much. Never happened to my amp coz I don't move it often.
PTP wirings are soft wires so they don't have this problem.
Heating is another concern. hook-up wires are never over-heated because they are all hanging in the are. the copper tracing in a pcb can get overheated if the board is cheap
my 2cents.
Again.....You're stereotyping the PCB amp...It depends on the design and the amp....Soldano uses PCB,as do Mesa amps and tons of other amps...Are these amps "chumps" because they are wired PTP? LOL.....:laugh2: :smack:What about the whole Marshall JCM 800 series...All pcb mounted components...
It's the whole boutique mentality over the years that has us all thinking this way....Do I Like PTP? Heck yeah....Is it better tonally? Hmmmmmmmm?
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Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
ptp is easier to repair
While PCB normal is a pain to change components on, you have to watch if the pcb can take the heat from the desoldering and resoldering.
The sonic differences are non existant if the materials are good.
ptp is easier to repair
While PCB normal is a pain to change components on, you have to watch if the pcb can take the heat from the desoldering and resoldering.
The sonic differences are non existant if the materials are good.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Again I go back to the design because Mesa has some amazing PCBs in their amps....It's alot easier and more consistent from a business stand point to go PCB and you're also talking alot of amps being made,but I still will never buy the fact that PTP sounds better or is just better than the PCB amp....It's not..
I've see some horrible PTP wired amps also...Just a non-organized rat trap of ramdom wiring all over the place....Very very non-Hiwatt like inside...:laugh2:
Rid said:ptp is easier to repair
While PCB normal is a pain to change components on, you have to watch if the pcb can take the heat from the desoldering and resoldering.
The sonic differences are non existant if the materials are good.
Again I go back to the design because Mesa has some amazing PCBs in their amps....It's alot easier and more consistent from a business stand point to go PCB and you're also talking alot of amps being made,but I still will never buy the fact that PTP sounds better or is just better than the PCB amp....It's not..
I've see some horrible PTP wired amps also...Just a non-organized rat trap of ramdom wiring all over the place....Very very non-Hiwatt like inside...:laugh2:
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
At the end ptp is ptp due to the convinient way to change dead components, my dad used to maintain old millionwatts tubenavigation amps, they used ptp due to heat and the easiness of changing components.
The glue in PCB will come apart in the end, that is about the only weakness.
At the end ptp is ptp due to the convinient way to change dead components, my dad used to maintain old millionwatts tubenavigation amps, they used ptp due to heat and the easiness of changing components.
The glue in PCB will come apart in the end, that is about the only weakness.
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
No matter what so ever!!!
No matter what so ever!!!
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Mesa hasn't used PTP in alot of years....Not sure about that particular amp,but are you certain it is PTP wired? In other words,does it use a tag board or is it PCB?
cream123 said:
Mesa hasn't used PTP in alot of years....Not sure about that particular amp,but are you certain it is PTP wired? In other words,does it use a tag board or is it PCB?
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
I'm really disputing the tonality issues here more than the actual design....Would a "huge" company like Marshall,Fender,Mesa,Soldano,etc...use pcb if it made their amps tonally worse? Why aren't some of the best sounding effects pedals not wired PTB?Would they be tonally better if they were PTP only wired? :smack:
Rid said:
I'm really disputing the tonality issues here more than the actual design....Would a "huge" company like Marshall,Fender,Mesa,Soldano,etc...use pcb if it made their amps tonally worse? Why aren't some of the best sounding effects pedals not wired PTB?Would they be tonally better if they were PTP only wired? :smack:
cream123
JustAskinologist
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
it's nomad 100 head used, im not quite sure old it is the person at, the guy at the store told me it was ptp. shopped there for a long time and am taking the guy's word for it. again i love the amp and will buy it if it's not ptp.STRATDELUXER97 said:
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Exactly....Hence the boutique builders aspects on building an amp....Most of these guys were bit by the whole PTP mystique and they wouldn't dare build an amp any other way....Until they get so huge that PTP isn't as cost effective to churn out large amounts of amps....
But is the tone effected? That's the thing?
aleclee said:
Exactly....Hence the boutique builders aspects on building an amp....Most of these guys were bit by the whole PTP mystique and they wouldn't dare build an amp any other way....Until they get so huge that PTP isn't as cost effective to churn out large amounts of amps....
But is the tone effected? That's the thing?
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
There are no tonal differences, copper is copper, flat or round....some mighty fine hi-fi amps uses pcb...and they do not sound remotely weak or inferiour, actually almost nobody hardwires their amps in that buisness
There are no tonal differences, copper is copper, flat or round....some mighty fine hi-fi amps uses pcb...and they do not sound remotely weak or inferiour, actually almost nobody hardwires their amps in that buisness
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: whats so good about point to point handwired
Mesa has only used PCB boards with pots mounted off the boards for alot of years....Don't believe what alot of the store guys tell you...Ask Mesa about the amp before buying it..
cream123 said:
Mesa has only used PCB boards with pots mounted off the boards for alot of years....Don't believe what alot of the store guys tell you...Ask Mesa about the amp before buying it..
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