Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I don't know about anyone else, but things like talent, intelligence, performance, playing guitar... all make a woman more attractive to me. Conversely, a swimsuit model in heels holding a PRS or an ML doesn't suddenly become a guitar player.

The women I find truly attractive have a lot more going on for them than just something physical. I fell in love with my wife partly because she's a freakin' brainiac. Since we met she's earned two masters degrees. Sure, I still like getting her naked, but that's not all there is to my attraction for her.

I've got a massive celeb crush on Jenna Coleman, who plays Clara Oswald on Doctor Who. She's a talented actress, very intelligent, and geeky.

There needs to be a look in the eyes like something's going on upstairs for me to be attracted. Sometimes you get these girls that are physical specimens but when you look in their eyes they're dead, as if the only thought they've had all day is "I think I had too much lettuce at my last meal a week ago." Unfortunately, that's part of the whole bigger issue of gender roles that girls playing guitar is part of. Girls, from the beginning, are taught to be beautiful and serve a particular role, usually not a very productive one, and they have to be pretty or they're worthless. That's why even the most physically beautiful women on earth are photoshopped in magazines, because somebody somewhere decided that they're not perfect, and the message this sends is terrible.

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

It's not easy to understand this issue without more participation from women.
Unfortunately, while informative, lively and irreverent, this forum is such a swinging sausage party it rivals NYC's San Gennaro Festival.
From my previous dialogues with the few women who did venture here, that was somewhat off-putting.

This is one of the reasons I feel we need to start getting a little more polite than we have been before... yes, of course hot women are awesome. Big duh.
But why can't awesome women be hot?

See, I was under the impression that the ladies like the rough-and-tumble type. That's why we walk around ruining everything, right? Because deep down - love is all we want...and tube amps.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

See, I was under the impression that the ladies like the rough-and-tumble type. That's why we walk around ruining everything, right? Because deep down - love is all we want...and tube amps.

My wife loves that I'm a pervert... But admittedly I think she's the only one.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Masculinity and femininity are social constructs. Experiments repeatedly show no evidence whatsoever of innate biological predisposition or preference. Indeed, in some societies, an activity may be deemed masculine whilst, in others, it is deemed feminine.

Then, comes the degree of social control. Some societies forbid proscribed activities. Others do things to citizens to make the proscribed activities physically impossible.

I agree with this–at one time in America a professional woman was unheard of, she was either to marry and have kids or be a teacher, nurse, or librarian. Girls raised on the farm were mocked as Tomboys and so forth.

This is FALSE FALSE FALSE. Ifd you have not READ the studies in REAL SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS, STFU.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

This is FALSE FALSE FALSE. Ifd you have not READ the studies in REAL SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS, STFU.

Are there any studies that conclusively prove gendered traits aren't a result of environment and upbringings? My understanding was that the jury is still out in this area.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

The media have misled us all!

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

The media have misled us all!

No i think the media has us right where they want us

 

[ginormous]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

This is FALSE FALSE FALSE. Ifd you have not READ the studies in REAL SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS, STFU.

Drop some science, Ace. Chapter & verse. I want to know.

I think it's also important to understand that despite all our punditry and pontificating, this issue is SO, WAY, MUCH bigger than this itty-bitty widdle forum can solve.

We can, however, do as the late Mr. Palmer did.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Idea

Hello kitty bobbins.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

You guys are all falling into the single variable trap. There is not ONE thing that drives this.

Let's get a few things going on here;

#1 GAMA wants to make money - bottom line. So let's don't get all egalitarian about this. If there was no money - there would be no discussion. End of story.

#2 The fact that there is a somewhat egalitarian motive is a bonus and can't be denied. But to really impress me, you need to take away the profit motive. Can't do that so we will never know. The fancy word for that is "confounded"

Now - a few other things….

#1 Men and women ARE different. If you missed this, you can't even start to participate in this discussion. They are biologically, hormonally, neurologically, different. They have, in general, different goals, motives, purposes, and focusses. They have different preferences, wants, needs desires and interests.

#2 We need to consider two bell curves, overlapping each other to some degree. Yes - there are very tall women, and very tall men. But the tallest man is taller than the tallest woman. Always was, always will be. And there are far more taller men than tall women. Same thing. So while we are different, we are similar. But to only some degree.

#3 Culture DOES make a difference. You can't ignore it. We are not creatures of Nature or Nurture. We are creatures of Nature AND nurture. But there are limits in both cases.

At the end of the day, though, the issue becomes which aspect is the most powerful as it interacts with biology, social setting, individual learning, and the issue in question.

This question is no different than the question of "Why are there not more female CEO's"

The very first thing you need to do to understand that is understand that THERE ARE NOT MANY MALE CEO's!!!!!!!!!! Just like there are not many guitar players over the age of 20 or so.

Next, consider the socio-biology of it. Males battle for mates. Welcome to planet earth. Women do not battle for males. Playing guitar is the social equivalent of being a peacock. Women don't need to do this.

Women bale on being CEO's the way they bale on the workforce. They are BUILT to take care of and nurture children. That doesn't mean that men can't. And it doesn't mean that women can't be CEO. It means that they have a fundamentally different purpose. At least most of them. Or a majority of them. They just effing like different things mostly.

You guys at GAMA sound like the women in C-level positions complaining about there being too little female CEO's. The FACT is that a great proportion of women are simply not interested in it. They are not interested in playing guitar anymore than any other instrument.

MOST adult women over 25 don't play anything. Those that do generally don't play guitar.

The reason women like to dance is the same. Why aren't there more male ballet dancers? Same answer.

Now - no doubt…there iare definitely cultural things that are part of the guitar factor. But let's rule out Biology first. FAce it: Metal = Aggression. Women are less aggressive period. Not all (No offense to Wendy O'Williams, etc…). Not all of them - but most.

And let's face it. People LIKE to be with their peer group. So to be a woman metal/rock musician, you'll need to be aggressive, enjoy the company of men more than women, and not bale on this crap for child rearing.

Are you guys now seriously asking this question? Want to throw in self-esteem as a factor? You should, because it is. Take Pigbacon. He has the self esteem of a gian sea slug. Yeah - he can chat here. Anyone ever see him on stage? And you never will. Consider women have way less and more fragile esteem than men in general. (not all, but many/most). So throw in a couple Alpha A-holes and now that one is out too.

Chew on all of that for a while, then get back with me. Remember kids - ALL of those variables are IN PLAY SIMULTANEOUSLY.

There are no more guitar playing rock chics for the same reason I don't run into a bunch of hog hunting chics with tac'd out pig guns.

Could you do more to make it friendlier for the FEW who MIGHT choose to engage in this activity? There is a hello kitty start and pink pickups. You have done enough. Get over it.

For every woman who wants more women CEO's, there are a hundred women saying "WTF is wrong with that chic? Just because she wants to have a penis why do I?" Of course, they won't say that to the CEO chic, because they have been SOCIALIZED to know it sounds wrong to say that. But at the end of the day, to be CEO is easy. Just takes time effort and motivation - that MOST ALL MEN do not have.

Same with guitar.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

How DARE you speak truth in a PC world:?:

 

[voggin]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I get where Ace is coming from. I don't agree 100%, but I agree the differences between men and women are such that the guitar marketing world can't simply take more pix of female guitarists or hire more sponsors

My own view, based upon nothing other than being on this planet for a considerable period, is that women will never, in any serious numbers, get into something like magnet swapping. I know that's an extreme example, but everything else a marketer needs to know flows from it.

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Aceman, droppin' some science on us!

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Idea

Hello kitty bobbins.

I would be all over these.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I get where Ace is coming from. I don't agree 100%, but I agree the differences between men and women are such that the guitar marketing world can't simply take more pix of female guitarists or hire more sponsors

My own view, based upon nothing other than being on this planet for a considerable period, is that women will never, in any serious numbers, get into something like magnet swapping. I know that's an extreme example, but everything else a marketer needs to know flows from it.

Same thing was once said about girls and cars. You know how many girls are in the Ford Mustang community getting their hands dirty building their own engines and whatnot these days? Lots. I know girls who would prefer car parts and gift certificates to Summit Racing and American Muscle over flowers and candy. There are some SICK cars out there built and driven by girls.

Girls playing guitar will change once society stops telling them it's a boy thing.

Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Same thing was once said about girls and cars. You know how many girls are in the Ford Mustang community getting their hands dirty building their own engines and whatnot these days? Lots. I know girls who would prefer car parts and gift certificates to Summit Racing and American Muscle over flowers and candy.

And this anecdotal evidence means nothing... If you read what ace said its about the bell curves. There has always been and always will be some that are on the edges of the bell. The girls you see playing with cars are the Lita Ford and Orianthi of the mustang world. The ratio of guys to girls in racing is still what? 100 to 1? Can you even name a dozen of them? I'm sure for everyone that you can name i can easily find 25 women who have zero interest in cars other than as transportation.

For all the years I raced there was an certain "type" of girl who was attracted to racing. Most were looking for a certain type of attention or needed a certain portion of their ego bolstered. Now of course there are always exceptions to the rule. But the exceptions dont break the rule they prove it.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

And this anecdotal evidence means nothing... If you read what ace said its about the bell curves. There has always been and always will be some that are on the edges of the bell. The girls you see playing with cars are the Lita Ford and Orianthi of the mustang world. The ratio of guys to girls in racing is still what? 100 to 1? Can you even name a dozen of them? I'm sure for everyone that you can name i can easily find 25 women who have zero interest in cars other than as transportation.

For all the years I raced there was an certain "type" of girl who was attracted to racing. Most were looking for a certain type of attention or needed a certain portion of their ego bolstered. Now of course there are always exceptions to the rule. But the exceptions dont break the rule they prove it.

My point is that at one point in fairly recent history there were almost girls working on cars. Now they're not so hard to find. Sure, it's nowhere near a 50/50 split, but it's not like you have to go hunting anymore and only find Ashley Force.

As far as the type of girls... That seems to have changed. I know girls that get excited when Whipple puts out a new model supercharger or discuss the fine minutiae of sparkplug gapping.

Overall the point is that there's nothing inherently female stopping girls from getting into anything like guitar or cars. Sure, there's neurological differences and hormonal differences beyond the physical differences, but those physical differences only affect things as far as being a linebacker for the football team. Girls have shoulders to hang a strap from and fingers to hold a pick and fret the fingerboard and plenty of them have musical talent and a love for guitar-based music. I honestly believe that it's artificial societal barriers that keep women from taking up an electric and playing.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

My point is that at one point in fairly recent history there were almost girls working on cars. Now they're not so hard to find. Sure, it's nowhere near a 50/50 split, but it's not like you have to go hunting anymore and only find Ashley Force.

As far as the type of girls... That seems to have changed. I know girls that get excited when Whipple puts out a new model supercharger or discuss the fine minutiae of sparkplug gapping.

Overall the point is that there's nothing inherently female stopping girls from getting into anything like guitar or cars. Sure, there's neurological differences and hormonal differences beyond the physical differences, but those physical differences only affect things as far as being a linebacker for the football team. Girls have shoulders to hang a strap from and fingers to hold a pick and fret the fingerboard and plenty of them have musical talent and a love for guitar-based music. I honestly believe that it's artificial societal barriers that keep women from taking up an electric and playing.

There really is no way (without some sort of survey being done) to know if there really are more females participating or if they are just more visible. Ashley force by far and away wasnt the first female. Shirley Shahan won national events before Ashley was even a gleam in her fathers eye.

The girls are the same... They are the exception to the rule... They are the edge of the bell curve. There is more to it than just cultural influence. A good example would be my sister... She grew up with my father around cars we spent every weekend at the drags, I remember him giving her every opportunity even so far as offering to build a car for her when she got her drivers license. Did she take it? Nope... She had no interest. Here she was raised in a very pro car environment and she didnt jump on it. Its not so simple just removing the so called cultural barriers wont bring them running.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

There really is no way (without some sort of survey being done) to know if there really are more females participating or if they are just more visible. Ashley force by far and away wasnt the first female. Shirley Shahan won national events before Ashley was even a gleam in her fathers eye.

The girls are the same... They are the exception to the rule... They are the edge of the bell curve. There is more to it than just cultural influence. A good example would be my sister... She grew up with my father around cars we spent every weekend at the drags, I remember him giving her every opportunity even so far as offering to build a car for her when she got her drivers license. Did she take it? Nope... She had no interest. Here she was raised in a very pro car environment and she didnt jump on it. Its not so simple just removing the so called cultural barriers wont bring them running.

Well, the same applies to boys. My dad's spent the '70s, '80s, '90s, and most of the '00s building Fords into streetable drag cars.

My brother David eats, breathes, and sleeps Mustangs. He can rebuild a 351W top to bottom and have it in the car running by himself in less than 8 hours.

I cut my teeth on third generation F-bodies building a few motors here and there, but nothing like what David did, and then did the same with my SN95 Mustang that I had before it got sideswiped while parked by a bus.

My brother Patrick? Couldn't be arsed. He likes fast cars, but just driving them. His idea of getting dirty is eating finger food.

My sister Jillian, on the other hand, has a moderate interest in muscle cars and motorcycles, but she's too busy being a college-aged kid with actual friends to even think about it. She definitely displays more "testosterone" than Patrick. LOL

So, similarly to your sister, Patrick grew up in a very pro-car environment and didn't take to it, and there were no cultural barriers for him. Just a lack of interest.



I'm not saying that removing cultural barriers will make EVERY girl go to GC and Sam Ash to buy a guitar, but it will bring in the girls that would show an interest if they weren't shamed out of it.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

There really is no way (without some sort of survey being done) to know if there really are more females participating or if they are just more visible. Ashley force by far and away wasnt the first female. Shirley Shahan won national events before Ashley was even a gleam in her fathers eye.

The girls are the same... They are the exception to the rule... They are the edge of the bell curve. There is more to it than just cultural influence. A good example would be my sister... She grew up with my father around cars we spent every weekend at the drags, I remember him giving her every opportunity even so far as offering to build a car for her when she got her drivers license. Did she take it? Nope... She had no interest. Here she was raised in a very pro car environment and she didnt jump on it. Its not so simple just removing the so called cultural barriers wont bring them running.

I will add a bit to this. 10 years ago I was all over the car scene in Minneapolis and St. Paul, specifically the tuner scene as I hung around with enthusiasts. At the time I was a German car enthusiast hanging out with American and German car tuner crowds. Back then there were about 3 girls to 97 guys who drove and tuned their own cars and two of them, to my knowledge, brought their cars to a garage to have everything tuned. I grew up in a house where my dad taught me how to fix my own cars. My sister had equal opportunities to learn such things. Ironically, my sister loves driving and loves fun cars but she has never worked on a car in her life. As a result she buys a new car every 2-4 years so she never has to deal with problems. IMO that is foolish because I know how to turn a wrench but for my sister it's really her only option. Her interests just were not in fixing cars.

To tie it back into guitar: my sister is a good piano player. She had equal opportunities to play my bass or guitar in our teenage years around the same time I started playing. She never had interest. She likes guitar music, especially Spanish styled playing, but she never had enough interest to learn how to play one.