Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

[Mincer]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Though this is slightly off topic, let me turn your question back towards you and the rest of the forum: is there any woman out there, who, if her name was on an SD product, would make you more likely to purchase it?

I don't know if asking a bunch of guys is going to get you the right answer to that. How about asking a bunch of girls the same question? In an industry that caters to either teenage males (who want to one day be rock stars) or middle-aged men (who want to relive the fantasy of being young and 17), it is difficult to erase the last 30 years of stereotypes and sexism that continues. Now, in an age where electric guitar music is not popular (and may never be as popular again), you have to convince females to 1. listen to guitar-dominated music and 2. Sort through the prevailing sexism and macho posturing that exists in the electric guitar world. I think the window has passed for that. Nita Strauss may be a popular female guitarist, but young girls are not listening to Alice Cooper. And you know as well as I do that she wasn't hired because she is the type of player so unique that no one else could do what she does.
I think it is impossible to turn the whole industry around. But you can control the piece of it that you have. Jennifer Batten, a great player, was popular in 1988. There are unique female players (with their own voice) out there. They probably could use a little support.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Obviously girls are incapable of choosing to play guitar unless we create a quota system for them.

We need a Title IX program for Berkely and M.I.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Obviously girls are incapable of choosing to play guitar unless we create a quota system for them.

We need a Title IX program for Berkely and M.I.

Right. Because we can't consider the question without painting it into some absurd political corner.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

They're out there, only few and far between.

Like guys who look good in cardigans?

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

This entire topic is a waste of time. If they want to play guitar, they will

Yet you seem willing to continue wasting your time with it. I think the question is, "Why aren't they playing?" rather than, "How can we force enough of them to play in order to fulfill some silly government requirement that LesStrat finds politically abhorrent?" Are you afraid of finding out the answer to the question you're pretending we're not examining?

 

[Aasinsilta]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Evan brought up the Title XI stuff. It was a nonfactor before he mentioned it, and pondered about a similar program for guitar playing.

Also, if you guys want to blame the music and culture for frightening girls out of rock, then why support it? Throw out your Zeppelin and Van Halen records, stop playing in the tribute bands, stop going to shows. Why support the music if you're going to turn around and blame it for creating a problem that has you guys so riled up? Also I wonder if this would garner this much attention if we changed the topic to something like Muslims or another group that plays guitar in lower numbers?

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Evan brought up the Title XI stuff. It was a nonfactor before he mentioned it, and pondered about a similar program for guitar playing.

Also, if you guys want to blame the music and culture for frightening girls out of rock, then why support it? Throw out your Zeppelin and Van Halen records, stop playing in the tribute bands, stop going to shows. Why support the music if you're going to turn around and blame it for creating a problem that has you guys so riled up? Also I wonder if this would garner this much attention if we changed the topic to something like Muslims or another group that plays guitar in lower numbers?

I don't think that we should throw out our Zep and Van Halen albums. However, girls should be able to turn it around on the guys, like this.

You know... Cuz... It's OK for women to talk about sex, too.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there are peripheral vectors influencing girls and women to stay away from guitar, that would be directly relevant to the question as I see it. If it's the music itself that's turning people off -- lyrical content, for example -- that makes for an interesting discussion, too. I think the cultural factors, the "trappings", the "comes with the territory" stuff have much less claim to legitimacy than the actual artistic content. I have less patience and less tolerance for it; it's stuff I wouldn't want to encounter myself, nor would I want a female friend or family member to have to put up with it.

 

[Aasinsilta]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Way to put words into my mouth. I never said it was wrong for women to write songs about men, but a constant under current in this thread is that men have driven women away with all the songs about women. Can you please explain the logic behind that? Women can air their crushes and such in songs, but when men do it's wrong?

EDIT: Pigbacon, if we were to surmise that women are drawn away because of the culture of rock music, I think the first place you would have to look is in the music itself. Rock music is full of sexual content, and without I doubt any guitar mags would try to push the "sexy babes posing with guitar" angle unless it was made popular through the lyrical content of the music. The cultural factors are a direct product of everything in the music; people play pentatonics because they hear them all over in the music. The same would go for the lyrics. If you are going to blame the culture, in a culture based around the music you would have to look at the music first.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Way to put words into my mouth. I never said it was wrong for women to write songs about men, but a constant under current in this thread is that men have driven women away with all the songs about women. Can you please explain the logic behind that? Women can air their crushes and such in songs, but when men do it's wrong?

EDIT: Pigbacon, if we were to surmise that women are drawn away because of the culture of rock music, I think the first place you would have to look is in the music itself. Rock music is full of sexual content, and without I doubt any guitar mags would try to push the "sexy babes posing with guitar" angle unless it was made popular through the lyrical content of the music. The cultural factors are a direct product of everything in the music; people play pentatonics because they hear them all over in the music. The same would go for the lyrics. If you are going to blame the culture, in a culture based around the music you would have to look at the music first.

I never said you said it was wrong. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I was saying is that instead of doing what you suggested and stopping listening to Zep and Halen how 'bout we realize that girls can do the same thing but the other way around.

Or...

The same way.

Cuz, honestly, in the end what does THAT even matter? We all want something, whether we're a guy or a girl. That goes way deeper into the issue than just playing guitar but rather "gender roles" of "it's OK to be a horndog with notches on your headboard if you're a guy but if a girl even thinks about kissing a guy she's a terrible, dirty slut", which I think is absolutely absolutely stupid.

Gender roles are dumb. Girls can rock out and guys can play with Barbies.

And like I've mentioned previously in this thread, here's my son's doll house. Don't care that it's pink (it's more pink on the inside). He likes it and it makes him happy. That's all that matters to me.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

And we would have to find out what, exactly, is influencing people, and how. Rock music is has a lot of sexual content, but is it really "full"? What about instrumental music, and all the rock and metal songs that have nothing -- nothing -- to do with sex? Consider also that the target market for those magazines and buying guides is men in general, and young men specifically. They come to the table pre-loaded with an interest in sex and women, and I don't think we can lay 100% of the blame/credit for that at rock's feet.

In your earlier post you seemed to be saying that looking at this question means we have to reject rock music. Is the implication that, since we clearly can't reject rock music, we can't look at the question? I think we've established that women and girls aren't playing guitar in great numbers. And I believe the question is, simply, "Why?" Is anyone frightened by that question?

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

And we would have to find out what, exactly, is influencing people, and how. Rock music is has a lot of sexual content, but is it really "full"? What about instrumental music, and all the rock and metal songs that have nothing -- nothing -- to do with sex? Consider also that the target market for those magazines and buying guides is men in general, and young men specifically. They come to the table pre-loaded with an interest in sex and women, and I don't think we can lay 100% of the blame/credit for that at rock's feet.

In your earlier post you seemed to be saying that looking at this question means we have to reject rock music. Is the implication that, since we clearly can't reject rock music, we can't look at the question? I think we've established that women and girls aren't playing guitar in great numbers. And I believe the question is, simply, "Why?" Is anyone frightened by that question?

To counter your point, that's exactly why I posted the videos I did. They're women talking about sex. It's a subject that women are usually discouraged from discussing by guys who spend a lot of time discussing it.

Also, as far as the magazines, that's one reason I read Premier Guitar. Barely any boobs and a whole freakin' lot of guitars. It's the opposite of the GW Buyers Guide.

I think there's a difference between viewing women for pleasure (porn, Playboy, other naughty mags and websites, etc.) and objectifying them to grab attention of a very specific target group at the exclusion of other people that may be interested in the core item but not the objectification.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I know plenty of women who love the sexual nature of rock music like Zeppelin for example. Also, as I mentioned somewhere on the first page there is no shortage of women going into pop and hip-hop which is full of not only songs and lyrics of over the top sexual nature but the way they dress objectifies women as much or more than anything rock has ever done. So, really, that's not the issue here. It's something else.

 

[Aasinsilta]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I never said you said it was wrong. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I was saying is that instead of doing what you suggested and stopping listening to Zep and Halen how 'bout we realize that girls can do the same thing but the other way around.

Or...

The same way.

Cuz, honestly, in the end what does THAT even matter? We all want something, whether we're a guy or a girl. That goes way deeper into the issue than just playing guitar but rather "gender roles" of "it's OK to be a horndog with notches on your headboard if you're a guy but if a girl even thinks about kissing a guy she's a terrible, dirty slut", which I think is absolutely absolutely stupid.

All right, maybe you specifically hadn't said it, I'll give you that. But the macho/perv element has been brought up by many of the members arguing we have to do more to bring women into the fold. I also don't think anyone ever said anything was inappropriate for girls to discuss in their lyrics, but perhaps someone else had in this thread. Lady Gaga and Nicki Minaj are making their intentions with men very prevalent in their music, but you don't see men shying away from pop music. I honestly don't think it's much of a factor in why girls don't play guitar, but it seems to what many members here are stuck on. If you're trying to say most of the men involved in rock discourage women from talking about sex, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Parents, preachers ok but I don't think anyone penning songs about shagging girls told a girl talking to him about it to shut it.

And we would have to find out what, exactly, is influencing people, and how. Rock music is has a lot of sexual content, but is it really "full"? What about instrumental music, and all the rock and metal songs that have nothing -- nothing -- to do with sex? Consider also that the target market for those magazines and buying guides is men in general, and young men specifically. They come to the table pre-loaded with an interest in sex and women, and I don't think we can lay 100% of the blame/credit for that at rock's feet.

In your earlier post you seemed to be saying that looking at this question means we have to reject rock music. Is the implication that, since we clearly can't reject rock music, we can't look at the question? I think we've established that women and girls aren't playing guitar in great numbers. And I believe the question is, simply, "Why?" Is anyone frightened by that question?

Well the way some of the members have been posting about it, it would seem that rock definitely helps further those desires in the kids. There is music that is related to things other than sex, of course, but that seems to be a non-factor in the opinion of the members here. No one is frightened by the question, but the main argument seems to be that the sexualization involved in rock music and culture drives women away. The question of why women don't play guitar is probably related to something beyond what is being discussed in this thread. The recurring implication from those trying to get more women involved is that the entire culture drives them away, from the musical content to the players due to them objectifying the women. I don't get how that argument stands when the porn industry is flourishing.

I would say that the reason women don't play guitar in large numbers is because the way that Western society works, it doesn't push women to look for a way to express themselves like men do. If you look across the board at all creative fields, be it art or cinema, men are the leading creators in almost all of these fields. Is it because we turn women away, or is it because men are more limited in terms of personal expression? Men are usually looked down for whining and crying for example, whereas women are allowed to do this more. Maybe all that steam they let out doing that removes their desire to go out and play music or do whatever form of art to express their frustrations and desires.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Well the way some of the members have been posting about it, it would seem that rock definitely helps further those desires in the kids. There is music that is related to things other than sex, of course, but that seems to be a non-factor in the opinion of the members here. No one is frightened by the question, but the main argument seems to be that the sexualization involved in rock music and culture drives women away. The question of why women don't play guitar is probably related to something beyond what is being discussed in this thread. The recurring implication from those trying to get more women involved is that the entire culture drives them away, from the musical content to the players due to them objectifying the women. I don't get how that argument stands when the porn industry is flourishing.

Well, the first thing I see is that, in music women are optional, and I assert that with caution because I claim that, in adult entertainment, they are a necessity. (Within the heteronormative context, of course.) Porn producers need women, and they will do whatever it takes to get them. How many active women in the United States adult entertainment industry, at any given time, vs. how many women playing guitar (beginning amateur, to pro)? How many women does it take to satisfy the demands of the porn industry, vs. how many it would take playing guitar for us to notice substantial differences?

Consider also the reasons women may have for taking up music or adult entertainment. Think the money's better in porn, on average? Probably. Think porn gives some women a means of expression and enjoyment that's attractive to them? Maybe. Maybe some are finding the porn scene less reprehensible than the average rock club. Again, it would be great if we could hear from some actual F.A.B.s.

I would say that the reason women don't play guitar in large numbers is because the way that Western society works, it doesn't push women to look for a way to express themselves like men do. If you look across the board at all creative fields, be it art or cinema, men are the leading creators in almost all of these fields. Is it because we turn women away, or is it because men are more limited in terms of personal expression? Men are usually looked down for whining and crying for example, whereas women are allowed to do this more. Maybe all that steam they let out doing that removes their desire to go out and play music or do whatever form of art to express their frustrations and desires.

Now yer thinkin'.

 

[Aasinsilta]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

Well, the first thing I see is that, in music women are optional, and I assert that with caution because I claim that, in adult entertainment, they are a necessity. (Within the heteronormative context, of course.) Porn producers need women, and they will do whatever it takes to get them. How many active women in the United States adult entertainment industry, at any given time, vs. how many women playing guitar (beginning amateur, to pro)? How many women does it take to satisfy the demands of the porn industry, vs. how many it would take playing guitar for us to notice substantial differences?

Consider also the reasons women may have for taking up music or adult entertainment. Think the money's better in porn, on average? Probably. Think porn gives some women a means of expression and enjoyment that's attractive to them? Maybe. Maybe some are finding the porn scene less reprehensible than the average rock club. Again, it would be great if we could hear from some actual F.A.B.s.

Not to be a noob but what are FABs?

I guess the money in porn is better once you reach a certain plateau, but I'm sure most girls are not raking in millions. Still, most women will assert to you that they entered the porn industry out of their own free will and comment that they feel a certain power out of it. I believe Sasha Grey was the one who made this idea popular in the mainstream culture, and it's permeated since. I would suppose that they get the same rush out of it we get from playing guitar. It must be something for them though that playing guitar, or music doesn't fulfill. As for numbers, I have no clue on either but I suspect the numbers of pro and amateur ladies in porn is higher than those playing guitar, possibly those playing music altogether.

Now yer thinkin'.

I should apologize, I think I get a little overly confrontational as I got the feel this question was asked to try to place the blame on a party as guilty rather than figure out why it is as it is.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

frightening girls out of rock

I find this phrase telling.

The dominant subtext to this entire discussion has been, why are females choosing not to take up electric guitar in large numbers? The presumption has been that the only option is to adopt "Rock Guitar Culture" as it already exist. In crude terms, the girls would be obliged to join the boys' club and to play by its rules. This ignores the way that many women think - about music, about musical instruments and about themselves.

Ceasing to "frighten" is not the same as beginning to attract. An affirmative action plan is not the answer.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

"Ceasing to frighten" would be all I'd ever personally want out of it. There's no shortage of things for a person to do outside of music and guitars; I don't think we can fault someone for just not being interested. But if there are things about the atmosphere of the guitar industry/community that are both within our control and turning girls, women -- well, anybody -- off in large numbers, I would like to see that improve.

If the industry wants to do things to actively attract female players, that's their thing. There's nothing new about business trying to expand into an "underserved market". That seems more free-enterprise to me than social engineering.

If there are things we could do to look less like repulsive gits, I'm in favor of that as well.

BTW: Did you know Sasha Grey does music? Not guitar, but some obscure industrial stuff. Thing about her is, if she's doing something, I get the feeling it's because she wants to be doing it.

 

[DreX]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

I don't think any aspect of the guitar sub-culture scares girls away from guitar, it scares them away from guitar sub-culture, which is a whole different thing. If a girl likes Tegan and Sarah, she goes out and buys a guitar, takes it home and plays Tegan and Sarah songs. She has no inclination to visit SDUGF, no reason to buy guitar magazines, or try to work her way into a male rock band. Avoiding those scary, guitar playing men is very easy: you simply never seek them out to begin with.

When a girl sees someone they like using a guitar, they're going to think that could be them playing guitar, too. The person they idolize and model themselves after automatically serves as proof that not all guitar players are bad or conform to sexist gender roles. There's a reason fewer girls play guitar, but the notion that they are scared away from guitar can be set out with the trash.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Why Aren't there More Female Guitar Players, Especially Electric?

What I was saying is that instead of doing what you suggested and stopping listening to Zep

There's at least 2 all-female Zeppelin tribute bands, Zepparella and Lez Zeppelin.