Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

[Lachezar Dochev]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Reflecting as the oposite of abosorbing... like softer material will absorb and harder reflect the vibrtions of the string.
As for the rasobating chamber - how about universal routed body?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Reflecting as the oposite of abosorbing... like softer material will absorb and harder reflect the vibrtions of the string.
As for the rasobating chamber - how about universal routed body?

Its still not a resonating chamber. It will sound different than a body with less routing due to lower mass but it still really doesnt form a chamber.

Reflecting wouldnt be the opposite of absorbing though. Hard and soft are relative and dont necessarily tell you what the vibrational qualities of a material would be. There is a large difference between somethign that doesnt vibrate very well and something that actually absorbs it. Like most plastics dont vibrate very well but will still vibrate some but a sponge doesnt vibrate at all and would actually absorb them.

Reflecting would indicate a change in direction where a material may not change the direction of it but allow it to pass.

heres a bit of food for thought. Cast iron in hardness is about the same as steel. but if you have a cast iron crank shaft and you hit it with a wrench or something it will give a dull "clank" where a steel crankshaft will ring like a bell with a "ting" sound. Both are about the same hardness but vastly different vibrational characteristics.

 

[oneblackened]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I actually hate direct mounting pickups. Not very adjustable, and people ruin the mounting tabs on the pickups.

Also, the tonal thing? There's no difference, having owned both.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I actually hate direct mounting pickups. Not very adjustable, and people ruin the mounting tabs on the pickups.

Also, the tonal thing? There's no difference, having owned both.

I tend to agree with this. Most of the time its done just so the manufacturer can save a dollar on mounting rings and 5 minutes labor by not having to drill 8 holes and assemble the springs.

My Jackson DR7 had the lamest direct mount set up. Was big springs like you see with D cell batters holding the pickups up so they would wobble. But were also nonadjustable.

Ive converted all but 1 of my direct mount guitars to pickup rings. The one that hasnt I'm happy with the pickups in it so I havent bothered.

 

[oneblackened]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I tend to agree with this. Most of the time its done just so the manufacturer can save a dollar on mounting rings and 5 minutes labor by not having to drill 8 holes and assemble the springs.

Sounds more or less right to me. People at the moment hate the look of pickup rings though, for some inexplicable reason.

I have to spend $20 on ****ing baseplates for the Full Shreds I bought a little bit back because some jackass drilled them out for direct mount, and 3-48 nuts are as it turns out extremely hard to find.

 

[HTT]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

The big reason why the mounting method has little impact on the tone at the end is that the pickups are not receiving energy from the wood. They are reading the strings above it.

The wood does impart qualities to the vibration of the strings which the pickups then pickup. But the pickups are not "listening" to the wood directly. Its coming through the strings.

Ive actually done it both ways where I have had direct mounted guitars that I changed to rings then ive had ring mounted guitars that ive changed to direct mount and there is not a sonic difference that I can attribute to the mounting methods.


Think about its pretty simple... take the pickup out of its mounting and put it over by where you rest your arm... lay it against the wood... and play... what sound do you hear come through the pickup? Without steel strings vibrating in the magnetic fields the pickups are effectively "deaf"

I agree for the most part, but the wood on an electric guitar does vibrate. This moves the pickups (small amount) in relation to the strings.

I think if we look at the mounting of, say, a normal telecaster bridge pickup mount vs. a ring mount or a pickguard mount then the mounting method makes a significant difference in tone.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I agree for the most part, but the wood on an electric guitar does vibrate. This moves the pickups (small amount) in relation to the strings.

Not enough to be significant. Its going to be measured in thousandths of an inch. They arent that sensitive. I dare you to turn the screws a 16th of a turn and record me an example that the difference can be heard.

I think if we look at the mounting of, say, a normal telecaster bridge pickup mount vs. a ring mount or a pickguard mount then the mounting method makes a significant difference in tone.

A telecaster is way way way different and cant really be compared. A telecaster bridge has a baseplate and is mounted in a magnetic frame. Thats an entirely different situation and notice the important word here. "Magnetic" frame. The strings work with the pickup because they are magnetic the frame on a telecaster influences the pickups magnetic field. You cant compare this to the difference between direct mount and ring mounted pickups. Neither of those effect the magnetic field.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Remove the pickup and bolt it face-down to the body of the guitar away from the strings. The wood will still resonate, but the pickup will not detect it. I don't know how much more clearly it can be stated. Guitar pickups are not microphones nor are they piezo transducers, which are the only things that will detect body resonance. It doesn't matter if the pickup ring is wood, or the pickguard is wood, or if you cover the pickups in your pine Tele with mahogany. Moving the pickups is not where sound comes from. It is only from the disturbance of the magnetic field above the coils.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Remove the pickup and bolt it face-down to the body of the guitar away from the strings. The wood will still resonate, but the pickup will not detect it. I don't know how much more clearly it can be stated. Guitar pickups are not microphones nor are they piezo transducers, which are the only things that will detect body resonance. It doesn't matter if the pickup ring is wood, or the pickguard is wood, or if you cover the pickups in your pine Tele with mahogany. Moving the pickups is not where sound comes from. It is only from the disturbance of the magnetic field above the coils.

Why would the movement of the coil not disturb the magnetic field established between strings and coil? Not the same as movement of a string but whether the string moves and alters that magnetic field or the coil moves and alters the magnetic field ....the field is not identical to one where the pickup moves differently. Whether the camera moves because the ground is shaking or the subject of the picture moves because the ground is shaking....both can cause movement and therefore alter the picture, yes?

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Your guitar will be 10% more cool with direct mounted pups.

Absolutely this! :yourock:

What about a wooden pickguard insread of plastic? If it is tighltly bolted to the body will it not increase the reflecting qualities of the system (compared to the plastic pickguard) and thus affect the tone?

I do believe the wood affects the tone (try a JB in a Strat that is Alder, Basswood and Mahogany then tell me there is zero difference.) I've used wood mounted (looks really cool IMO) and both plastic and wooden pickguards (wood pickugards are awesome IMO!

Wenge on Sitka Spruce
View attachment 66917

"Ebonized" Mahogany on Basswood
View attachment 66918

Personally, I think there is SO much that goes into a guitar's tone (scale, bridge type, bolt-on vs set vs neck-thru, pickups/magnets, string size and type, etc...) but I don't think the material of the pickguard (wood vs. plastic) affects the tone. I've never tried a Metal Pickguard but I would think that could be dicey due to the nature of electronics (would think that could cause some issues if wired like a normal pickguard.)

I think experimentation is the best thing–if you have an idea then try it and see what you think.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Why would the movement of the coil not disturb the magnetic field established between strings and coil? Not the same as movement of a string but whether the string moves and alters that magnetic field or the coil moves and alters the magnetic field ....the field is not identical to one where the pickup moves differently. Whether the camera moves because the ground is shaking or the subject of the picture moves because the ground is shaking....both can cause movement and therefore alter the picture, yes?

And again... its not a camera. Its an inductor. Thats an incorrect analogy. A camera merely gathers light, where an inductor actually generates a magnetic field.

To move to the extent you are suggesting would introduce tons of mechanical noise from the coils themselves. If you really think the pickups are vibrating and changing the tone put your finger on the top to dampen the vibrations. Then play and listen for a change in tone. Make sure any changes you hear are actually tonal changes not mechanical noise from springs or other things rattling.

Sorry but the pickups dont move enough even when mounted solid for this to have any effect on tone.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

When the magnetic field is disturbed, electrical impulses are generated that travel along the coil wires. Body resonance is not strong enough to disturb the magnetic field of a pickup, and cannot accentuate or otherwise enhance the disturbance of the field directly.

With a direct-mounted pickup, especially in the solid-mounting manner Blueman described, all you've done is reduce extraneous pickup vibration (notably in the height-adjustment screws and springs).

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Has Seymour Duncan ever taken a position on the two related questions:
1. Is there a different sound/tone produced by wood and pickguard mounted pickups? and
2. Does the selection of wood for the guitar cause a different sound/tone from the pups, all other things being the same?

The related topics do cause strong emotions, and with relatively little empirical evidence supporting the various positions seems similar to debates on religion where there is always going to exist some evidence and lots of good arguments - but they remain just that.....an argument....or arguments. One day I will see if I can create a set-up to determine an answer....not sure if "the" answer but at least some first hand video taped results. Thanks for all that have contributed and given your opinions. Lots of good answers here.

 

[jmh151]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I must disgree as I found direct wood mounted pickups made a difference on one particular pickup- EMG's. The preamp on EMG's magnifies every little sound, including vibrations. Rub a screwdriver along a passive pickup as compared to an EMG, and you'll see what I mean- even tap on each with your finger.

I had a Strat that I crudely routed out for a humbucker in the bridge. I mounted an EMG 81 in the pickguard, then I tried something- I got 2 dowls, laid them under the pickup acting as shims, and screwed the pickup directly into the body, EVH style. The change was immediate, the bottom of the pickup picked up the resonance and vibrations from the body through the wooden dowls I used as spacers, and provided a much louder, stronger tone, as if the guitar was now on steroids. This was also an older poplar bodied Strat from the 80's.

From what I see, really no one is correctly directly mounting their pickups in their guitars. Most are merely screwing the mounting legs to the body. To do it correctly you need direct contact from the base of the pickup to the guitar body, and the more surface area, the better.

I bought the FU Tone PMS pickup mounting system to direct mount a pickup, and it does not make enough contact with the pickup's base plate to make that big a difference- at least on a passive pickup. I haven't tried it with an active pickup like an EMG yet.

 

[dukebox]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Why would the movement of the coil not disturb the magnetic field established between strings and coil? Not the same as movement of a string but whether the string moves and alters that magnetic field or the coil moves and alters the magnetic field ....the field is not identical to one where the pickup moves differently. Whether the camera moves because the ground is shaking or the subject of the picture moves because the ground is shaking....both can cause movement and therefore alter the picture, yes?

You're correct. It's all about the relative motion between the strings and the pickup. If the strings held perfectly still and the body vibrated, you'd get sound because frame of reference A is still moving relative to frame of reference B, therefore from a physical standpoint, it's impossible for there not to be a difference if you make a change that effects the relative movement of the pickup. The real question is whether the difference can be heard. There's a couple reasons to believe the difference isn't audible. First, even the mounting ring or pick guard mounted pickups are moving along with the body of the guitar, they don't isolate the pickup from the body's movement. Second, the amount of movement in the strings is much, much greater than any movement of the pickup.

Yet another question is what would the difference sound like if it were loud enough to be heard? Maybe one way to find out wound be to take a guitar with two necks, mute the strings of the active pickup with your hand so that they're unable to vibrate freely, then strum the strings on the inactive side of the guitar. That should cause the active pickup to vibrate while it's strings remain fairly still, and you should hear the sound produced by the movement of the pickup alone.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I think if the pickup is shimmed and screwed hard against the shim -- as opposed to springs or foam -- it would make a bigger difference.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Personally, I can't hear a difference. I like the look of direct mounting more, provided they are the right height and the tabs aren't bent. As far as the actual wood of the guitar? Well, I played guitars made of different woods and the same pickups. They sound different. I don't know if it is up to the wood or not, or any other variables. In the end, I don't know if it matters much. You either like the sound or you don't. Trying to predict how something will sound can get close, but in the end, it is a guessing game until you try. And even then, it is a guessing game. We can have guidelines, EQ curves, etc. I am sure everyone here has tried a mod (pickup or otherwise) on their guitar that should have sounded awesome, but didn't. On the flip side, we've all tried something that shouldn't have worked, yet it rocked. I would be curious to know if someone did a scientific analysis on different body wood/same hardware/same neck and see where the EQ curves are. But you might have the same variation in a body wood made of the same stuff.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Wood's influence on tone is directly related to the bridge, posts, and nut, not the pickups.

Take an ash-bodied LP-style and route the section where the bridge and tailpiece are mounted - just a slot, not the entire rear quadrant - and sink a mahogany block with a 1/8" or thicker maple cap on it, and when amplified it will sound like mahogany with a maple cap.

Want the tone of a rosewood Tele without the expense? Route the area under the bridge and plug the hole with a rosewood block.


Note this isn't something a meagerly-skilled person who fancies himself a luthier can do, because the block and the hole have to be precise, not wobbly with epoxy filler.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

You're correct. It's all about the relative motion between the strings and the pickup. If the strings held perfectly still and the body vibrated, you'd get sound because frame of reference A is still moving relative to frame of reference B, therefore from a physical standpoint, it's impossible for there not to be a difference if you make a change that effects the relative movement of the pickup. The real question is whether the difference can be heard. There's a couple reasons to believe the difference isn't audible. First, even the mounting ring or pick guard mounted pickups are moving along with the body of the guitar, they don't isolate the pickup from the body's movement. Second, the amount of movement in the strings is much, much greater than any movement of the pickup.

Yet another question is what would the difference sound like if it were loud enough to be heard? Maybe one way to find out wound be to take a guitar with two necks, mute the strings of the active pickup with your hand so that they're unable to vibrate freely, then strum the strings on the inactive side of the guitar. That should cause the active pickup to vibrate while it's strings remain fairly still, and you should hear the sound produced by the movement of the pickup alone.

Even so, is this enough to influence the tone? Given that the strings are closest to the pickups, when they're moving they dominate the magnetic field as the source of the signal. If body resonance were strong enough to generate a response from the pickup, it would have to match the intensity of the strings to be detected.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I actually hate direct mounting pickups. Not very adjustable, and people ruin the mounting tabs on the pickups.

Also, the tonal thing? There's no difference, having owned both.

I invented a better way.

I use a direct mounted humbucker baseplate and modded screws for direct mounting pups. No need to stuff up pickup threads and the way i do it you can adjust it up and down like normal.

As for tone i don't think it does **** but it does look cool.

You can see the plate its mounted to in this picture


modded screw



If direct mounting is about getting vibration then with my idea you could ''if you wanted'' tap in 12 screws into the wood through the baseplate instead of just 2 and surly the added metal in the 2nd baseplate would do something? haha i am causing trouble.

I don't care what anyone says that ^^ is a ****ing smart idea.:nana: