Passive bass pickups with active EQ--underrated setup?

[Rex_Rocker]

I used to like my puny little Slate Drums from the 2010's, LOL.

I always wanted to try Colin Richardson's, Daniel Bergstrand's, and Andy Sneap's Super Drummer sounds, though. I think they also have Jason Suecof in there?

Slate has Terry Date nowadays, tho.

Superior Drummer cymbals always sounded so much better than Slate.

[Inflames626]

I always wanted to try Digidesign Strike back when Avid/M-Audio/Digidesign were more important than they are now. Never got around to it. This was in the mid-late 00s--Digi 002 and 003 and Eleven recording interfaces.

BFD 3.5 tutorials if you're interested. They're in a playlist but not in order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF8i7n9qwEA&list=PLwvXA3xgA1Wph2ZWdM36ZVWSbjuXzMCoK

[El Dunco]

I would definitely recommend something that lets you process samples that are as dry and as close to the raw mic’d sounds as possible if you’re a budding sound producer because it will give you practice for if you ever find yourself either in a pro studio with a drummer or find the adequate space for a project studio.

I’ve been spoiled with my choices of rural properties with massive rioms, high ceilings and best of all, non-parallel walls (even slanted ceilings.)

I was mixing a drum track the other day, I hadn’t done much more than confirm phase coherency, a biit of compression/EQ and my partner thought I was playing the drums in the room for real. It is complicated, I won’t pretend it’s not but there is both an art and a science to capturing great acoustic drums. There’s just no beating that sound of a great drum performance in a good room.

There seems to be an assumption that clicly or shall we say “hyper-present” kick sounds must be triggered. Not so. The mic being right up inside the batter, slam pads etc can get there just as easily. One of my techniques is to use elastic straps to suspension mount one mic inside the kick, right up against the batter.

This next part is important, don’t remove the resonator head but keep it on (the cable comes out the hole easily enough for the close mic) and put either another mic or even a sub-bass (essentially a small reverse-speaker, you can build them yourself with a monitor speaker and suspend-mount that inside an old snare shell) or both up to the sound hole, built a “tent” around it with soond insulating material and you can easily blend them for however much attack and fullness you want with little to no bleed. Make sure they’re in phase after, they are different distances after all.

If your drummer has issues being heard with particularly fast double-bass, you could always drumagog those parts but with the same acoustic kick as the sample. The goal is to have as little “typewriter” effect as possible and what a shame it would be to waste capturing gorgeous drum sounds only to replace them with someone else’s. Even when Meshuggah first began using samples in the 90s (they recently put out studio footage from all their esrly albums, very cool to watch!) they used the recordings of their own drums for the samples.

With my band’s music, I avoid samples where I can. They generally aren’t needed in regards to performance. It depends entirely on the song. Sometimes I’ll have them mixed in gently for augmentation, usually to drive reverbs (but with a little more of the actual drum than Andy Wallace, seeing automating noise-gate thresholds is easier than ever now and many of his albums drum sounds tend to become too similar)

We do have some industrial elements which will also influence my decision. Our first album is 100% acoustic drums. I spent 6 months researching and developing how to capture it and it’s very accurate to how it sounded in the room. The whole thing was done in a “live” style which is in the footage I’m putting together a documentary movie about it with.

Also yes, Sterling Winfield helped produce Reinventing the Steel. They recently reissued it with new Terry Date mixed versions, the original mixes just remastered and the original masters from 2000.

[El Dunco]

These are some from an EP I produced for a client. Behold the raw tracks of a well mic’d kit, with the kick-micing technique I mentioned earlier.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w56mnbycm6vdlydy3g62/Video-29-10-2023-02-35-34.mov?rlkey=py5q33malqepta394nodovdy6&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lz4zhio2mpinhkf9bdj32/Video-15-6-2020-21-33-00.mov?rlkey=g0ebra3cvl1quzns69so6fyn9&dl=0

I really like the sound of the Senheiser e-series on rack toms.

[Inflames626]

Do you like parallel compression on drums, El Dunco?

[El Dunco]

Do you like parallel compression on drums, El Dunco?

Yeah, it can be awesome for adding energy, great on room mics and especially with a Fatso Distressor

[Inflames626]

Yeah, it can be awesome for adding energy, great on room mics and especially with a Fatso Distressor

Does it work as well for bass guitar?

[El Dunco]

Does it work as well for bass guitar?

It depends. IME it does funny things to bass guitar. Better off just using the least amount of compression it takes to keep the low end stable in the mix, make sure your bassist is tight and consistent because if they are, transients are your friend.. Multiband though, that’s another story.

[Rex_Rocker]

I personally like the bass' low end to be squashed to hell and back and only really let it decay like it normally would. But like I was saying, rather than using MBC, I split the bass so that the low-end is completely clean off the pickups. Like not even with the coloration of a bass amp.

For the rest of the bass, I like to even out the transients, but lightly and in different stages. I find compressor pedals actually bring out the attack since they're usually slow-ish, and make it seem like you're picking the bass with a sledgehammer rather than a pick. Some subtle compression afterwards, then some subtle compression on the bus mixing all my bass tracks but now as a whole again.

But yeah, consistent playing goes a long way.

I personally really like the sound of bass being played HARD. Honestly, with any instrument. I hate Metal being played like the band is afraid to ruin their manicures. The problem sometimes is with a pick, there is a lot more pitch drift problems with the attack of the notes, especially on the fast parts. So sometimes, you're forced to tune the bass a bit flat because of that. I've read people even use autotune on picked metal bass because of that.

[El Dunco]

I personally like the bass' low end to be squashed to hell and back and only really let it decay like it normally would. But like I was saying, rather than using MBC, I split the bass so that the low-end is completely clean off the pickups. Like not even with the coloration of a bass amp.

I’ll do that sometimes. It depends entirely on the bass sound and role in the song. Cranking a medijm bell at 50hz on the clean bass channel before the compressor, then shaving that off later (basically acting as instructions for the compressor.). I’m pretty bored of the same DI mixed with midrange only distortion that is the most common bass sound in modern metal so I’m always looking for something different.

Sometimes I will have the guitars and bass be almost equal parts of a greater whole rather than having the guitars take up all the bandwidth (or taking all the low end away. Again, I plan very meticulously based on the goal of the composition. I showed an example in T&C.

What I really like about basses that have a passive mode is how much better they play with really nasty fuzzes. There’s a new song we’re working on with a lot of emphasis on soundscapes. The verse guitars are split between a companion fuzz (nastiest fuzz I’ve ever heard!) straight to desk with crazy stuff to it and the Dual Rec to give it some “balls.” There’s some real complicated stuff going on. Can’t wait to release it.

[Inflames626]

I've never really understood aggressive picking unless a part calls for it. I hate sloppy right hand playing or attempting to compensate for it by emotion. Watching punk rock players bothers me. I prefer economy of motion and keeping everything tight.

Fast picking on bass in my experience is hard. If you listen to isolated bass tracks like Slayer a lot of times the bass parts against guitar parts at 16ths 200 bpm and above are just 8th notes. The bass is so buried in the mix and covered by double kicks that no one can hear it.

Jason Newsted will definitely pick 16ths, which in my opinion is hard because of the additional string resistance over guitar. Dyers Eve bass track is all picked and for the most part follows guitars.

Finger playing on bass is harder to master, I think. It's like classical playing. You have to get the dynamics even, but once you are there and can do it consistently it takes less energy than playing fast with a pick.

A great finger player is better than a mediocre pick player, I think, but I definitely prefer picked bass over sloppy finger playing.

[El Dunco]

I've never really understood aggressive picking unless a part calls for it. I hate sloppy right hand playing or attempting to compensate for it by emotion. Watching punk rock players bothers me. I prefer economy of motion and keeping everything tight.

Fast picking on bass in my experience is hard. If you listen to isolated bass tracks like Slayer a lot of times the bass parts against guitar parts at 16ths 200 bpm and above are just 8th notes. The bass is so buried in the mix and covered by double kicks that no one can hear it.

Jason Newsted will definitely pick 16ths, which in my opinion is hard because of the additional string resistance over guitar. Dyers Eve bass track is all picked and for the most part follows guitars.

Finger playing on bass is harder to master, I think. It's like classical playing. You have to get the dynamics even, but once you are there and can do it consistently it takes less energy than playing fast with a pick.

A great finger player is better than a mediocre pick player, I think, but I definitely prefer picked bass over sloppy finger playing.

Check out Rex Brown’s picking in SNP2. Like a helicopter! Alex Webster can do that with his fingers because he uses 3.

They both have the awesome Spector growl too. I really like that kind of piano-wire mid-range sound that’s easier to hear.

[Inflames626]

El Dunco, spot on as usual. I think Alex defeats the standard thinking that picked bass for metal is better and more consistent. Alex sounds like he's using a pick when he's using his fingers.

I think finger bassists are also more rounded players and can do more styles and techniques.

What Rex is doing is exactly what I need to work on. Just getting out the click and upping it every day.

Not my ideal tone by any means but I realize it's in a mix. SN2 is also kind of a throwaway song IMO, as is a lot of stuff on the second side of that album (I bought it first as a cassette). I much preferred Hell's Wrath and I Can't Hide from 101 Proof.

[Inflames626]

I've considered felt picks as a compromise--something that might give around the bass string and allow faster playing at the expense of sounding more like a finger player.

I'm thinking finger players who want more attack might do better with stainless strings as well, or pick players who want more warmth might want pure nickel or even flatwounds.

[Inflames626]

Also I have *tried* finger bass using right hand pinky. I'm not sure if anyone has mastered it but I wish I could do it well.

In classical guitar we were encouraged to use pinky. I see no harm in trying it on bass (aside from some tendon pain issues at the beginning). My pinky is fairly small, short, and weak, which is good for guitars up high on the neck because I can fit in there, but it becomes a liability when doing pinky vibrato or trying to play with the pinky on right hand for bass.