parallel, split...output?

[robrob2]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Wiring a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker in parallel results in a 4k ohm DC resistance and a -6 db lowering in output."

This doesn't seem right to me. I know the DC resistance of two 8k coils in parallel is 4k but their output isn't cut in half compared to a single coil or reduced by 75% compared to serial wiring.

I just played my Tele with an Invader humbucker in the bridge. Serial is very loud as expected but parallel actually sounds louder than when split. There's no way that parallel is -3db lower than a single coil. DC resistance is not a good indicator of output for coils wired in parallel.

PS. If you're not running a series/split/parallel switch with your high output humbucker you are really missing out on some sweet tonal variety. My Invader goes from monstrous in serial, to cool when split, and sounds sweet in parallel.

[Rodney Gene]

Re: parallel, split...output?

This doesn't seem right to me. I know the DC resistance of two 8k coils in parallel is 4k but their output isn't cut in half compared to a single coil or reduced by 75% compared to serial wiring.

I just played my Tele with an Invader humbucker in the bridge. Serial is very loud as expected but parallel actually sounds louder than when split. There's no way that parallel is -3db lower than a single coil. DC resistance is not a good indicator of output for coils wired in parallel.

Curios, where did you get 75% volume drop? Also I wouldn't use an Invader as a reference benchmark. It is designed for maximum string pull and signal strength. Even in Parallel there are 3 magnets at work. Split a classic humbucker (which is why I used an 8k A5 as example). Have fun...and don't take any of this too seriously! Tone and the quest for it should be inspiring!

Much Respect,

Rodney Gene, Austin Texas

[Zerberus]

Re: parallel, split...output?

While -3dB is effectively (when measured at the speaker) a 50% decrease in SPL, I think 2 of the most important factors in whether people notice it or not are experience and distortion.

Allow me to elaborate:

If you`ve already got a dimed 5150 and take away 3dB, the sound wonīt even clean up noticably for most people. If on the other hand youīve been playing for decades and have a good ear (which btw also often means that youīre using less gain than you were as a kid), youīll almost certainly notice the drop in output. Maybe not necessarily as output per se. but you will notice the way the whole feel of the tone changes. As a general rule, things start to tighten up and get more defined, all other factors unchanged.

Most players are somewhere in between those 2 extremes, and without wanting to sound condescending most players never really even aspire to attain the experience of example 2 but are happy noodling away to records or youtube videos.

So what happens is that the large masses will say "it`s not noticable", just like they do with trembuckers, covers and other "things that donīt make a difference because theyīre too small", and those that have honed their craft to a fine art will say it does matter, because they CAN hear a difference.

[Rodney Gene]

Re: parallel, split...output?

While -3dB is effectively (when measured at the speaker) a 50% decrease in SPL,

I must be missing something here, where are these number coming from? 50% and 75%? -3db is 50% of -6db but not of the total output of the pickup. There is no measurement of RMS in a pickup. It itself is not a sound device. Once plugged in and sending signal to the amp...the amp can be as loud as the amp can be in which case the 'average' RMS can be measured based on how much the volume is cranked. We are just referring to a drop in volume from series, single and parallel despite where the 'db' is to begin with as we have no '0' db reference point in a pickup. If I had to 'guess', I would say parallel sounds roughly 10% quieter than single and 20% quieter than series. This is why I say most people can't hear the -3db...(or 10%) drop in volume unless they are tuned to it.

Enjoy the process!~

Rodney Gene, Austin Texas

[robrob2]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Curios, where did you get 75% volume drop?

16k ohm series humbucker
8k ohm split coil -3db
4k ohm in parallel mode -6db

16 - 75% = 4

A humbucker in parallel mode does not have 1/4 the output of serial mode and half the output of a single coil.

[Rodney Gene]

Re: parallel, split...output?

16k ohm serial humbucker

A humbucker in parallel mode does not have 1/4 the output of serial mode and half the output of a single coil.

You are right. And...the FAQs don't mention resistance in the least in regards to this except as a reference point as to what to expect, a small -3db VOLUME drop. Resistance doesn't come into the equation.
OUTPUT strength from a pickup (often used in conjunction with DC Resistance) is not measured in decibels. My 3k Charlie Christian pickup has more output than my 8k Antiquity. Different wind, different wire, different magnets.

All is well~

[Zerberus]

Re: parallel, split...output?

I must be missing something here, where are these number coming from?...

In this case the relations basic audio engineering courses, but the numbers I admittedly simply took from previous posts. In facht the courses were admittedly a LOONG time go, so I may have the numbers themselves wrong, But IIRC +3dB is +100% SPL (Sound Pressure Level aka. "volume"), -3dB therefore equates to -50% SPL, primarily due to the fact that decibel is not a linear unit.

In this case itīs a relative measurement of gain, not of output power per se. The amperage is in this case almost irrelevant becase itīs primarily the amplitude of the voltage thatīs rising or falling with more output, and the relative amplification of that original signal is measured in dB.

Itīs admittedly not 100% correct to do so (reverse extrapolate amplification to pickup output) as youīve hinted at, itīs more of a crutch for those that understand studio technology better than pickup winding

[robrob2]

Re: parallel, split...output?

the FAQs don't mention resistance in the least in regards to this except as a reference point as to what to expect, a small -3db VOLUME drop

Quote from FAQ shown on the first post:

What are the differences between coil splitting and parallel wiring?
While coil splitting and parallel wiring sound very similar to most players, there are some differences. One difference is output. Splitting a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker results in an 8k ohm single coil and that translates into a -3 db lowering in output. Wiring a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker in parallel results in a 4k ohm DC resistance and a -6 db lowering in output

-3 and -6db is not "small volume drop." The FAQ implies a linear relationship between DC resistance and volume drop.

[Zerberus]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Quote from FAQ shown on the first post:



-3 and -6db is not "small volume drop." The FAQ implies a linear relationship between DC resistance and volume drop.

I think thatīs actually where the root of the problem is. Like you said, -3dB is not small, and -6dB is huge, and those numbers just donīt seem to line up with RW experience. But theyīre also completely disregarding the magnet which is if course a capital error.

3dB maybe, I can just barely imagine that as possible depending on exact configuration. But for a 6dB overall volume drop, that`s literally just about the difference between an idling Harley and a revving NASCAR....

[hermetico]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Sure, I understand. My point was to be clear. The term 'perceived' volume and how it was languaged is a phrase that generally does not refer to actual measured volume..but rather only a 'perceived' increase or decrease in sound level due to frequency changes. This happens often when switching between sets of monitors for instance. In the case of parallel versus coil cut, there is an 'actual' volume drop, not merely 'perceived'. In my experience most players cannot hear -3db of an overall tonal characteristic.

With all respect and, since you like to clarify things... let go.

I talked about 'perceived' volume because this is what really matters.
Perceived Volume = Loudness.
Many people mixes both terms but, they are totally different. Volume is an objetive measurable value, with the right gear (by example a Vumeter) and, it's always relative to some basis measurement unit. Loudness is a totally subjective sensation and, isn't measurable, this is how everyone senses the same thing at same measured volume.
So, I was clearly saying that my personal experience ('perceived volume') gives me the impresion that I am getting around 70% of full humbucker loudness when split, around 60% when in parallel and about 40% when out-of-phase and, that this SENSATION (absolutely personal and not measurable) varies from pickup to pickup, just depending on its strenght, disparity of coils, etc; because the energy of the remaining frequencies has a lot to see with which loudness I sense (and the sensibility of my ear to such a frequency band).
For sure, there are both, a real volume drop (measurable) and a clear loudness drop (perceivable).

My bottom line is... do we really need to go so tecky to answer that question?

[robrob2]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Pickup coils generate a voltage amplitude signal when a metal wire moves through its magnetic field. I don't see how two pickups in parallel would have a lower voltage amplitude signal. The voltage should be about the same as a single coil. I understand the tone will be different but I do not believe you should see a drop, and definitely not a -3db (50%) drop when wired in parallel.

[hermetico]

Re: parallel, split...output?

I think thatīs actually where the root of the problem is. Like you said, -3dB is not small, and -6dB is huge, and those numbers just donīt seem to line up with RW experience. But theyīre also completely disregarding the magnet which is if course a capital error.

3dB maybe, I can just barely imagine that as possible depending on exact configuration. But for a 6dB overall volume drop, that`s literally just about the difference between an idling Harley and a revving NASCAR....

Just a note here.

-3dB or -6dB mean absolutelly nothing.
The Decibel is a non-dimensional unit and must be always referred to some dimensional unit.

It's not the same to talk about -3dB V or -3dB SPL or whatever else, because decibels means just "X times greater than, in a logarithmic way". But talking about SPL changes, I am with you, if you ears aren't already in the painfull umbral.

[hermetico]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Pickup coils generate a voltage amplitude signal when a metal wire moves through its magnetic field. I don't see how two pickups in parallel would have a lower voltage amplitude signal. The voltage should be about the same as a single coil. I understand the tone will be different but I do not believe you should see a drop, and definitely not a -3db (50%) drop when wired in parallel.

Just curious, what happens with current?

[ArtieToo]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Keep in mind that the decibel formula for power is different than the decibel formula for voltage. Half power is -3db. Half voltage is -6db. In pickups, we generally speak in terms of voltage.

db=10Log(P1/P2)
db=20Log(V1/V2)

[Zerberus]

Re: parallel, split...output?

Just a note here.

-3dB or -6dB mean absolutelly nothing.
The Decibel is a non-dimensional unit and must be always referred to some dimensional unit.

It's not the same to talk about -3dB V or -3dB SPL or whatever else, because decibels means just "X times greater than, in a logarithmic way". But talking about SPL changes, I am with you, if you ears aren't already in the painfull umbral.

Thatīs kind of the point Iīwas trying to make, that w/o a reference point the measurment doesnīt really say much. For example a typical Harley Davidson w/ a V-twin @ 5 meters is pretty exactly 85 decibels (which btw is also the level of almost yelling human speech, and the threshold for long term damage after prolonged exposure), and a revving Nascar is "only" about 6dB louder. Which however is about 4x the SPL.

In this case however, I do believe that the 2 measurements can be somewhat interchanged as a crutch, because If I have 3dB more actual output coming from the pickup, then my input stages are getting slammed with a signal thatīs twice as strong, and (assuming thatīs not all getting turned into distortion in one of the various ways possible) the overall output will be approximately twice as loud.

Keep in mind that the decibel formula for power is different than the decibel formula for voltage. Half power is -3db. Half voltage is -6db. In pickups, we generally speak in terms of voltage.

db=10Log(P1/P2)
db=20Log(V1/V2)

OUCH, SNAP, youīre absolutely right. I didnīt even start to think about that and Iīll wager to say nobody else did, either....