Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

As I understand these issues (use of banned materials like ivory and whatnot) the law can (by law) only cover those materials and items made and/or harvested after the ban, and the ban cannot be retroactive (i.e. you can't say the law signed in 1980 governing Brazilian rosewood and Honduran mahogany applies to 1979 and further back).

Hence, you cannot be penalized for being in possession of anything made of elephant tusk before the ban was implemented, nor can you lose your 1959 Les Paul made of Brazilian rosewood and Honduran mahogany.

The problem here is that the act that stopped the importation of ivory is not the same as the one that is causing the issues here. The scary part to the Lacey act is the language used in it. The ivory bans include specific grand father clauses in them so that old ivory can still be traded. The lacey act does not and it is possible that they could decide to enforce it in that way.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

What's not so cool about this thread is that none of us here really knows what's going on, or how the case is being handled . . . but many have already cast judgements. (Based on political stance, environmental stance, love/dislike of a giant corporation? Who knows.) If Gibson has been doing something bad, they're going to suffer. Choose to break the law, or involve yourself with criminals and that's the price that you'll pay. If the FBI has overstepped their bounds then I suspect that Gibson's lawyers will get more than fair compensation for the problems caused.

The amount of distrust and fear that Americans have for the government that they elect democratically every few years is comical. It's a democracy. Why all the belly achin' and "end of the US as we know it" hyperbole? If America really doesn't like someone in office, they'll be voted out in a few years.

The idea that it destroys businesses to use legal means for constructing guitars is silly when you consider that Fender, Jackson/Charvel, Ibanez, Martin, Yamaha, and PRS all seem to be doing fine under the same restrictions. It would be a very anti-capitalist and unfair policy to give one company a manufacturing advantage by not enforcing the rules as some are suggesting here.

My 2 cents.

Good post and you do see a lot of people passing judgement on Gibson based on the affadavit alone. The problem that I'm having here is every guitar manufacturer is using rosewood why would Gibson go through the trouble to get somethign thats illegal when legal is available? I'm guessing that most guitar manufacturers source their wood from the same countries maybe even the same vendors. So why only Gibson and not them?

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

What's not so cool about this thread is that none of us here really knows what's going on, or how the case is being handled . . . but many have already cast judgements. (Based on political stance, environmental stance, love/dislike of a giant corporation? Who knows.) If Gibson has been doing something bad, they're going to suffer. Choose to break the law, or involve yourself with criminals and that's the price that you'll pay. If the FBI has overstepped their bounds then I suspect that Gibson's lawyers will get more than fair compensation for the problems caused.

The amount of distrust and fear that Americans have for the government that they elect democratically every few years is comical. It's a democracy. Why all the belly achin' and "end of the US as we know it" hyperbole? If America really doesn't like someone in office, they'll be voted out in a few years.

The idea that it destroys businesses to use legal means for constructing guitars is silly when you consider that Fender, Jackson/Charvel, Ibanez, Martin, Yamaha, and PRS all seem to be doing fine under the same restrictions. It would be a very anti-capitalist and unfair policy to give one company a manufacturing advantage by not enforcing the rules as some are suggesting here.

My 2 cents.

But by singling out Gibson and not hitting all USA manufacturers equally and at once in a sweeping sting operation and/or industry-wide serving-of-notice, they give everyone else an unfair manufacturing advantage while Gibson is shut down.
"Can't get that Les Paul you wanted because of the CIA looting their intellectual property? Buy a Jackson Custom Shop Jazz'R. It'll be built, rebuilt and shipped before Gibson's troubles are over."

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

The problem here is that the act that stopped the importation of ivory is not the same as the one that is causing the issues here. The scary part to the Lacey act is the language used in it. The ivory bans include specific grand father clauses in them so that old ivory can still be traded. The lacey act does not and it is possible that they could decide to enforce it in that way.

Well, that is interesting. Sounds to me like this "Act" needs to be clearly defined before it is applied one day longer against anyone.
We can't have vague laws like that because it's open to interpretation, where the law should be explicit in language and in detail.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

But by singling out Gibson and not hitting all USA manufacturers equally and at once in a sweeping sting operation and/or industry-wide serving-of-notice, they give everyone else an unfair manufacturing advantage while Gibson is shut down.

Gibson's CEO is a man of interesting character traits to say at least. They have been raided in 2009 and now again on new charges, and very concrete batches of wood.

Who are you to say that PRS and Fender did the same thing and also deserve to be raided?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Gibson's CEO is a man of interesting character traits to say at least. They have been raided in 2009 and now again on new charges, and very concrete batches of wood.

Who are you to say that PRS and Fender did the same thing and also deserve to be raided?

Who are you to say Gibson deserved to be raided? And again there are NO charges. Your link you provided was a filing not charges and was Gibson suing the govt not the govt bringing charges against Gibson.

Why would Gibson source their rosewood different than anyone else?

 

[JordanM82]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Its not simple at all. They didnt find illegal wood in 2009. In fact NO CHARGES at all have been filed stemming from the 2009 raid. Its all just held up in the court system. But Gibson has never been charged with wrong doing let alone convicted of it.

And guess what the 4th amendment still exists. They cant just "check back" to get a search warrant you still have to have a judge sign off on it. They cant just say "well we found stuff there before so we can look again at will" it doesnt work that way.

Whats scarier is your lack of understanding of the constitutional violations that are going on.

+1000, the gross lack of knowledge by American citizens of their constitution is appalling to say the least these days. Remember here folks we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Gibson has been charged with nothing from the 2009 raid; this is different then being found innocent, the government hasn't actually been able to even charge them with something. Please consider this when you treat them like an already convicted guilty party. I assure you in today's times if the gov't felt like it could win a case that would result in large fines to increase their budget right, they would do it. They are broke, and they certainly do NOT have "gobs of money" to throw at a case these days. They have YOUR money, tax payer money that they are throwing into at a company that has been convicted of no wrong doing. Maybe that doesn't bother a lot of you guys, but it sure bothers me...

What bothers me more, is that I could have MY guitar which I paid for with hard earned money (which I paid taxes on) taken from me. Without recourse, without re-compensation... That is just sickening.

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

So where is the constitution when Gibson is being shut down without due process?
They are being punished before they have even been proven guilty. I find the constitution is all well and good but the government seems to forget about it whenever it suits them.
I am sure it make you feel all warm inside to think you are protected but the fact of it is, the government can rip those "rights" away from you any time they feel like it and do it to people all the time.

 

[JBG]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Write your representatives. That's what I did.

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Write your representatives. That's what I did.

..will it change anything?
Chances are it was thrown in either a bag or the garbage and was given the same amount of attention either way.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Who are you to say Gibson deserved to be raided? And again there are NO charges. Your link you provided was a filing not charges and was Gibson suing the govt not the govt bringing charges against Gibson.

Which part of a lawsuit based on the 2009 raid being filed in June this year did you not get?

Why would Gibson source their rosewood different than anyone else?

Because possibly the other obey to the law and Gibson doesn't?

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Why would Gibson source their rosewood different than anyone else?

If they did, usually profit is the big motivation to skirt the laws.

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

But by singling out Gibson and not hitting all USA manufacturers equally and at once in a sweeping sting operation and/or industry-wide serving-of-notice, they give everyone else an unfair manufacturing advantage while Gibson is shut down.
"Can't get that Les Paul you wanted because of the CIA looting their intellectual property? Buy a Jackson Custom Shop Jazz'R. It'll be built, rebuilt and shipped before Gibson's troubles are over."

Actually Taylor went though some issues with this earlier (though not as publicly discussed). It resulted in their developing some sort of facility abroad and Taylor writes about visits in their publications.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

..will it change anything?
Chances are it was thrown in either a bag or the garbage and was given the same amount of attention either way.

Not trying t all definitely won´t change anything.

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Not trying t all definitely won´t change anything.

True...but sometimes things are futile and that is just the way it is.
You never know though, maybe if the right people were bombarded with letters from civilians that might have the right response of getting somebody to look into it.
I will also say that most know, or I hope they do that these policing agencies do not always do things for the right reasons. It is strange, they just popped up one day with a warrant..etc.

Again, I am not saying Gibson or anybody else did anything wrong just having a theoretical discusion.

 

[iismet]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

It's a democracy.

It's a Republic

Why all the belly achin' and "end of the US as we know it" hyperbole?

See => 9/11, Patriot Act, TSA, Iraq War, Libyan War, Syrian War, blah, blah, blah

If America really doesn't like someone in office, they'll be voted out in a few years.

See => Bilderberg Group, Hacking Democracy

It would be a very anti-capitalist and unfair policy to give one company a manufacturing advantage by not enforcing the rules as some are suggesting here.

See => General Motors, Chrysler, GE

Also See => Goldman Sachs, AIG, CITI, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America

So where is the constitution when Gibson is being shut down without due process?
They are being punished before they have even been proven guilty. I find the constitution is all well and good but the government seems to forget about it whenever it suits them.
I am sure it make you feel all warm inside to think you are protected but the fact of it is, the government can rip those "rights" away from you any time they feel like it and do it to people all the time.

See => US Patriot Act
Also See => TSA & 4th Amendement

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

And the Rights of a business are not the same as the Rights of an individual.


Henry J may be a flake and a nutcase, but he doesn't do all the sourcing of materials for Gibson. He has people under him for that. In any business structure, the people under the CEO have to be trusted to do what they are paid to do without direct supervision by the CEO personally, and they are expected to do it in a manner which complies with the laws that apply to the business in question.

Now, let's say "Frank" (the theoretical One Guy who oversees the sourcing of materials) has a personal beef with Henry or Gibson as an entity. He sees a chance to score legally questionable material and does it, then calls CrimeStoppers, knowing the Feds and the simplistic common man are going to point a finger at Henry. Frank gets his revenge.

On the other hand, let's say "Herman", a supplier in Germany, scores a load of Environmentally Protected lumber for cheap, then contacts Frank at Gibson and offers him a deal on what Herman misrepresents as legit. Frank has bought from Herman for years, but Herman sees the chance to turn a $5000 investment into $500,000 profit in one sale, so he fakes the legitimacy of the lumber and suckers Frank. If Frank gets caught with it, it's not on Herman, because Herman also has a supply chain and dusty paperwork trail of his own so the original Somalian Pirate Lumber Emporium is never linked.


But it's far too easy to simply say Henry is a flake and a crook for the inflated prices and guilty as Dahmer simply because he was accused, and the people who know absolute zero about a business think the man at the top is directly involved in everything from sourcing materials to building the product.

 

[formula73]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

It's a Republic



See => 9/11, Patriot Act, TSA, Iraq War, Libyan War, Syrian War, blah, blah, blah



See => Bilderberg Group, Hacking Democracy



See => General Motors, Chrysler, GE

Also See => Goldman Sachs, AIG, CITI, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America





See => US Patriot Act
Also See => TSA & 4th Amendement

You averted to a manhug right now? I'm totally feeling one. Thank you for being smart enough to deliver the info without the 'come at me bro' that was coming from me.

 

[philthis]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

And the Rights of a business are not the same as the Rights of an individual.


Henry J may be a flake and a nutcase, but he doesn't do all the sourcing of materials for Gibson. He has people under him for that. In any business structure, the people under the CEO have to be trusted to do what they are paid to do without direct supervision by the CEO personally, and they are expected to do it in a manner which complies with the laws that apply to the business in question.

Now, let's say "Frank" (the theoretical One Guy who oversees the sourcing of materials) has a personal beef with Henry or Gibson as an entity. He sees a chance to score legally questionable material and does it, then calls CrimeStoppers, knowing the Feds and the simplistic common man are going to point a finger at Henry. Frank gets his revenge.

On the other hand, let's say "Herman", a supplier in Germany, scores a load of Environmentally Protected lumber for cheap, then contacts Frank at Gibson and offers him a deal on what Herman misrepresents as legit. Frank has bought from Herman for years, but Herman sees the chance to turn a $5000 investment into $500,000 profit in one sale, so he fakes the legitimacy of the lumber and suckers Frank. If Frank gets caught with it, it's not on Herman, because Herman also has a supply chain and dusty paperwork trail of his own so the original Somalian Pirate Lumber Emporium is never linked.


But it's far too easy to simply say Henry is a flake and a crook for the inflated prices and guilty as Dahmer simply because he was accused, and the people who know absolute zero about a business think the man at the top is directly involved in everything from sourcing materials to building the product.

agreed, most CO's crunch numbers and hire "buyers" or "sellers" for merchandise

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

maybe Gibson felt the heat coming down and were in a rush to use up some Brazillian and Honduran, and built my new RD Amber with it?;