Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

[uOpt]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

OK, what is so special about this wood the Government says they are using?
I mean, say for sake of discussion, they are using this wood, why?
What make it so special they would want to risk using it over their normal stocks of wood?

Understand, I am not saying they are innocent or guilty, I am just trying to figure out what is so special about this wood to make people want to try and skirt the law to use it.

The conflict is about a particular kind of rosewood from Madagascar that is protected by an international treaty. A local dealer on the Island illegally harvested it and sold large batches to Gibson (in fact it might be that Gibson got all of it).

Again, before you make this is a federal case (hehe), we have to see whether Gibson got a competitive advantage out of this. It wouldn't be fair to PRS, Fender etc if you would let Gibson break existing laws. Then those who follow the law would be the ones screwed, at a competitive disadvantage and long term you would only have lawbreakers.

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

The conflict is about a particular kind of rosewood from Madagascar that is protected by an international treaty. A local dealer on the Island illegally harvested it and sold large batches to Gibson (in fact it might be that Gibson got all of it).

Again, before you make this is a federal case (hehe), we have to see whether Gibson got a competitive advantage out of this. It wouldn't be fair to PRS, Fender etc if you would let Gibson break existing laws. Then those who follow the law would be the ones screwed, at a competitive disadvantage and long term you would only have lawbreakers.

..OK, but why? Is this wood hard to find and expensive in other places?
I am trying to figure out WHY they did this, NOT saying they actually did it.

I guess if they got a great deal on a large quantity then that is probably the reason. Profit is usually the main reason people go around laws.
There is always the possibility they bought the wood thinking it was a normal batch and not from a protected area.
Again, before the Pro Gibson guys jump in. I am not saying they did anything illegal, I am just trying to understand what is going on and why a company might go ahead and do this.

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Apparently the supplier (in Germany, I understand) doesn't adequately source all of their woods and dot all their i's and cross all their t's. It's more of an indirect violation. Gibson doesn't source the wood directly, they go through suppliers. It's like busting somebody for buying stolen goods, who didn't actually steal them.

Whatever. I'd love for the environment to be protected, but the country is essentially broke and can barely pay its own bills w/o having to raise it's own debt ceiling. Priorities...

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Apparently the supplier (in Germany, I understand) doesn't adequately source all of their woods and dot all their i's and cross all their t's. It's more of an indirect violation. Gibson doesn't source the wood directly, they go through suppliers. It's like busting somebody for buying stolen goods, who didn't actually steal them.

Yeah, but if you get busted with stolen property you are still involved. That is the way the law is setup. It may be they never knew or it may be they knew exactly what they were buying. I guess the courts have to figure that part out.
It might all be a big misunderstanding, who knows.

Whatever. I'd love for the environment to be protected, but the country is essentially broke and can barely pay its own bills w/o having to raise it's own debt ceiling. Priorities...

Being involved in the cutting and usage of these protected trees is still breaking the law, you can't make exceptions because of the countries financial state.

 

[eschoendorff]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

I wear an aluminium helmet so that MLB can't scan my brain.

You wear a helmet so that Major League Baseball cannot scan your brain???

Good luck with that...

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

You wear a helmet so that Major League Baseball cannot scan your brain???

But many baseball bats are made from aluminum; it totally cancels out the benefits of the helmet. Because they're wired out of phase.

 

[Bludave]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Don't "F" with the Government. They have gobs of money to run this through countless court dates. Pay the fines & move on.

 

[iismet]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

As with the latest raid, he said criminal charges have not been filed from the 2009 raid. He said the company has sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government showing the seized wood was legally exported from that country.

It's a re-occurring theme. Couple Examples:

Congress willingly allows the Executive to commit war when it wants.
We are subjected to Federal warrant-less searches in airports.

The rule of law with respect to GOVCO constraint, slips further and further from "The People" with every passing day.

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Yeah, but if you get busted with stolen property you are still involved. That is the way the law is setup. It may be they never knew or it may be they knew exactly what they were buying. I guess the courts have to figure that part out.
It might all be a big misunderstanding, who knows.

Being involved in the cutting and usage of these protected trees is still breaking the law, you can't make exceptions because of the countries financial state.

The government violates the Constitution on the regular basis... who's going to "bust" them?

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

The government violates the Constitution on the regular basis... who's going to "bust" them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for them.

 

[medic24]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

I just want clarification on wiring my helmet and my bat out-of-phase

 

[uOpt]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Contraband is contraband. If you knowingly possess it you get busted. If you unknowingly possess it it gets confiscated.

The Gibson raid that led to this was in 2009. If they still have the same material they are simply stupid and can't claim they didn't know anything.

Keep in mind these laws have been made long before Obama.

 

[guitarrob]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

So, then I guess they are buying this stuff because they are getting it at a big discount?
It is possible, they didn't know and it was the supplier but that will have to be sorted out in the courts.
If they got pinched the first time and went back to the same suppliers then they obviously knew all about it. Given the curent economy I can see why a company would want to save as much as they could producing products.
That is not to say they are guilty or know anything about it. Just making conversation.

 

[BrianS.]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Profit is usually the main reason people go around laws.

Indeed.

 

[tmmblues]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Gibson getting raided is one thing but the guitarist that takes a guitar out of the country and can't prove that all of it's components are pre-embargo may lose an instrument and get convicted of a crime that they did not commit. Gibson should know that they need documentation as to the source of all components. But how does a guitarist who buys a vintage guitar know about the source of the components. The article describes a pianist who moved to England with an antique Steinway grand piano and replaced the ivory keys with plastic so that he did not get in trouble if he ever brought it back to the US.

 

[iismet]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Yeah, but if you get busted with stolen property you are still involved. That is the way the law is setup. It may be they never knew or it may be they knew exactly what they were buying. I guess the courts have to figure that part out.
It might all be a big misunderstanding, who knows.

Being involved in the cutting and usage of these protected trees is still breaking the law, you can't make exceptions because of the countries financial state.

Contraband is contraband. If you knowingly possess it you get busted. If you unknowingly possess it it gets confiscated.

The Gibson raid that led to this was in 2009. If they still have the same material they are simply stupid and can't claim they didn't know anything.

Keep in mind these laws have been made long before Obama.

Why doesn't GOVCO charge them if they have broken the law?

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Gibson was raided, again, and this time it has a stench of foul play that I can smell from here.

But what´s with the misleading thread title? How does buying a Gibson make me or anyone else into a criminal? After I read the press release you linked to this morning there was nothing lingering in my mind about going to jail as a consumer... 0.o

Sorry 'bout that. A briefly discussion of the issue was contained in the video with Henry J. talking.

It's stated that after the Lacey act amendement of 1988, when crossing federal borders or state lines, they can confiscate your guitar stating: your fingerboard is made with illegally obtained ebony from madagascar, or indian rosewood, the nut from illegally obtained ivory. It's up to YOU to provide the diverse certifications of legal origin and/or obtainement to prove'em wrong, something you obviously don't have and can't obtain being your instrument in detention!

Until then they can keep your instrument FOREVER and you're liable to a $ 10,000.00 fine for EVERY ITEM and up to ONE YEAR OF JAIL TIME for every item. So basically you're treated as a poacher!

George Gruhn published somewhere in 1988 an article warning about the amendement and the possible worst-case-scenario-living-nightmare that's happening to Gibson right now. Then, people made fun of him. I don't see'em laughing now... specially Henry J.!

Only in America, folks!

 

[Barron1]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Sorry 'bout that. A briefly discussion of the issue was contained in the video with Henry J. talking.

It's stated that after the Lacey act amendement of 1988, when crossing federal borders or state lines, they can confiscate your guitar stating: your fingerboard is made with illegally obtained ebony from madagascar, or indian rosewood, the nut from illegally obtained ivory. It's up to YOU to provide the diverse certifications to prove'em wrong. Until then they can keep your instrument FOREVER and you're liable to a $ 10,000.00 fine for EVERY ITEM and up to ONE YEAR OF JAIL TIME for every item. So basically you're treated as a poacher!

George Gruhn published somewhere in 1988 an article warning about the amendement and the possible worst-case-scenario-living-nightmare that's happening to Gibson right now.

Only in America, folks!

Stop it. Just stop it

 

[iismet]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Until then they can keep your instrument FOREVER and you're liable to a $ 10,000.00 fine for EVERY ITEM and up to ONE YEAR OF JAIL TIME for every item. So basically you're treated as a poacher!

Never ending Love.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Stop it. Just stop it

What? everything he said was correct. That is how the law is being interpreted right now. No maybe they wont check at the border in your guitar case but the way the law is written they can and leaves you holding the bag.

Do you not know who George Gruhn is? As in Gruhn guitars? A very prominent vintage guitar dealer