Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Of course it won't. You wouldn't be able fit that much wire in it. But if you can get close, you're gold.

It' not so much the amount of wire as it is it's orientation to the string and the magnet underneath. The main problem is that pickups with even closer layouts to a reap P-90 have been criticized, so what chance does a 3+3 design have? I'm OK with the design either way, though. I just hope it wouldn't sound as dark as a StraBro 90.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The low interest has bothered me from the beginning. It's only gotten worse.

IMO, a lot of it fizzled with the Z-90 debate. The people who thought up the Z-90 last year had a point, but it was ultimately disruptive to a clean and fair process this time around.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Well, there's physics and stuff.

Which is to say you are saying nothing, because the basics of it are going to be how it is voiced. I am fairly convinced that those like MJ and Seymour know a fair bit about this, and suspect that with, you know, physics and stuff, it will be possible to recreate a sound with different materials or configurations.

I have said from the beginning I want a humbucker that sounds like a p90 and could care less about configuration. Being as the fralin p92 is somewhat close, and the Wilde forerunner to the l610 nails this, I call BS on your non-answer.

Because physics and stuff in no way rules out a pickup with a certain eq curve. You have given exactly no reason to believe your assertion. If MJ or someone with extensive custom voicing and years of winding experience were to say they didn't think it could be done, it would have a lot more weight.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Which is to say you are saying nothing, because the basics of it are going to be how it is voiced. I am fairly convinced that those like MJ and Seymour know a fair bit about this, and suspect that with, you know, physics and stuff, it will be possible to recreate a sound with different materials or configurations.

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

Because physics and stuff in no way rules out a pickup with a certain eq curve. You have given exactly no reason to believe your assertion. If MJ or someone with extensive custom voicing and years of winding experience were to say they didn't think it could be done, it would have a lot more weight.

The EQ curve of the coil is only one part of the end result. The more important aspect (as you can't imitate this by adding winds or changing wire gauge) is the shape of the magnetic field and how it intersects with the coil and strings.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

But it must be nice to know what they can and can't do with a pickup that has no specs. Your thoughts here are baseless conjecture. In fact, they are based in anything but physics as it is impossible to predict what a pickup can or cannot sound like if it
a) Does not exist
b) Has no specifications

This is the kind of thinking that is just not based in anything, but magically chalked up to science, when it is anything but.

The EQ curve of the coil is only one part of the end result. The more important aspect (as you can't imitate this by adding winds or changing wire gauge) is the shape of the magnetic field and how it intersects with the coil and strings.

How the eq curve ends up as the end result is all that matters ultimately. That will be an interaction of coil, magnet, wind pattern, magnetic field, etc. However, ultimately the coloration the pickup imparts is a sum of the parts, one which really doesn't matter if it is achieved the same way. Theoretically, you could get an identical voicing any number of ways if you properly compensated for it. Each part brings it's own character to the table, and the custom shop has a heck of a lot more experience with these things than we do. We don't hear the shape of the magnetic coil. We don't hear the gauge of wire, and we don't hear the magnet. What we hear is the electrical signal generated, after it has been amplified. We hear a sum of all the parts working. The simple fact is, we don't know what is possible for the CS to do voicing wise until they have actually done it. I suspect they could do it. Might it sound like your idealized p90? Who knows. P90s don't all sound alike either. Some are extraordinarily dark, some are quite bright.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

Everything sounds pretty much the same, but everything sounds a little bit different. If it's got fat mids that aren't quite P-90 mids but they sound awesome, I'm happy.

I'm not a huge JB fan, BTW, and I prefer the JB Jr. To the real JB. It's wirier and less familiar and it fits more places. I also like the way the L'il Demon sounds in demos.

I've never heard a Strat-sized wannabe P-90 that I've liked, though. Physics wins on those! QP easily beats Fralin and Harmonic Design fake Strat P-90s.

But if you've heard a Z-Coil, that's definitely headed toward P-90 sound, although slightly sterile, as G&L pickups tend to be. I think the Custom Shop could fit some mojo into that design.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

How the eq curve ends up as the end result is all that matters ultimately. That will be an interaction of coil, magnet, wind pattern, magnetic field, etc. However, ultimately the coloration the pickup imparts is a sum of the parts, one which really doesn't matter if it is achieved the same way. Theoretically, you could get an identical voicing any number of ways if you properly compensated for it.

That's simply not true.

This is what a P-90 magnetic field looks like:

versus a PAF layout humbucker:

The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Everything sounds pretty much the same, but everything sounds a little bit different. If it's got fat mids that aren't quite P-90 mids but they sound awesome, I'm happy.

I'm not a huge JB fan, BTW, and I prefer the JB Jr. To the real JB. It's wirier and less familiar and it fits more places. I also like the way the L'il Demon sounds in demos.

I've never heard a Strat-sized wannabe P-90 that I've liked, though. Physics wins on those! QP easily beats Fralin and Harmonic Design fake Strat P-90s.

But if you've heard a Z-Coil, that's definitely headed toward P-90 sound, although slightly sterile, as G&L pickups tend to be. I think the Custom Shop could fit some mojo into that design.

IMO the problem is that saying "this sounds like a P-90 / JB / PAF" is all just marketing talk to sell a pickup that might be great in it's own right. YOu have to wonder how the Little '59 sales would fare if they called it the "Smooth Strat Humbucker" and didn't try to exploit the appeal of one pickup to sell another.


BTW, speaking of voicing, the resonant peaks of the little and large counterparts aren't even the same, so they can't even claim they're faithfully replicating the EQ profile of the original full sized pickups. It's a suggestive inference at best.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

What about P90's that are slanted? I've played them, and they still sound like a P90 while being under different harmonic nodes. It's not exactly the same, but it still definitely sounds like a P90. I wouldn't say the Z coil configuration would automatically fail at having a P90 voicing due to covering different harmonic nodes.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Not only a tie, but what seems to me to be a very low number of voters over all. There doesn't seem to be much interest in a forum pickup at all, regardless of what it is.

I would say howzabout we compromise: call the Zebro the forum pickup, and ask (beg?) S.D. to highly consider designing a neck match for the '59/C as an addition to their regular catalog starting next year. (But those of use who want to buy one of the early "prototype" run now, 10 months early or whatever it is, can do so.) As for the tweaked '59/C bridge pickup (the brighter/clearer one), I'd love to have that pickup, but in the interest of not being greedy and demanding, I say we drop the idea, as part of the compromise that I proposed.

This sounds like a great idea! I think that'd make a lot of people happy.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

What about P90's that are slanted? I've played them, and they still sound like a P90 while being under different harmonic nodes. It's not exactly the same, but it still definitely sounds like a P90. I wouldn't say the Z coil configuration would automatically fail at having a P90 voicing due to covering different harmonic nodes.

Any slanted pickup will sound like that pickup slanted.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)



Is the Zebro made with two bobbins like these, but spread in two different locations on a hb baseplate and covered, to look like this?



If yes, then my question would be: WHY is this particular design appealing? WHAT EXACTLY does it bring to the table tone-wise? Specially if it should sound P-90ish, it doesn't have any physical factor that remotely could suggest 90 tone, so WHY this has being chosen?

Inquiring minds would like to know. :cool2:

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Is the Zebro made with two bobbins like these, but spread in two different locations on a hb baseplate and covered, to look like this?



If yes, then my question would be: WHY is this particular design appealing? WHAT EXACTLY does it bring to the table tone-wise? Specially if it should sound P-90ish, it doesn't have any physical factor that remotely could suggest 90 tone, so WHY this has being chosen?

Inquiring minds would like to know. :cool2:

Agreed... since the zebro would fill a humbucker route why wouldn't someone just buy a humbucker sized p90? I'd rather live with a bit of hum with real P90 tone than some split coil thing that doesn't hum and almost kinda sorta sounds like one. Plus the wide range look does not appeal to me. That said I voted for the hybrid.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

To be fair, there IS a P-90 in a bucker route, it's called the Phat Cat.

The idea with the Zebro is a hum-canceling pickup that fits a bucker route with a sound in the P-90 ballpark.
The whole 3+3 design definition is a hold-over from the Z-90 days that's, frankly, obsolete in the sense that we never agreed to telling the SD CS how to build it. If they decide to use it themselves then so be it but we are not telling them to.
EDIT: apologies, it seems I remembered wrong, there is indeed a split coil requirement in the description.
I still maintain that it would be best if we were to drop it in lieu of asking the CS to decide the best course of action, while perhaps nudging them towards the construction in the form of a suggestion/idea.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

That's simply not true.

This is what a P-90 magnetic field looks like:

versus a PAF layout humbucker:

The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

Actually, it is true. Even if you are choosing to ignore the obvious. We don't hear a magnetic field's shape. We don't hear the field at all. We hear the signal generated by an interaction of a whole system. To be blunt, if you miss this, there are some serious problems. We hear sound, after it has been amplified from a pickup as a whole, what we hear is always going to be, (contrary to your claims here) sound. That sound is going to be a sum of the parts. The assumption that a sound can only be generated one way is more than slightly ridiculous. You are taking a myopic look at magnetic fields, which while they have an effect, are not the end result.
The end result is going to be a sound, and if you want a graph, frequency response across the spectrum would be the one you are looking for.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

We don't hear a magnetic field's shape. Blah blah woof woof... etc etc..

The problem with your comment is that the shape of the magnetic field directly influences the sound thats generated... You cannot get away from that. You yourself proved and shot yourself in the foot the time you yanked the pole screws out of your BKP and its still produced sound. The only changes that occurred there were changes to the shape of the magnetic field.

 

[Grenade]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Ok, it's tied. What now? I think build both.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Even though the Zebro has more discussion surrounding it, I'd bet that hybrids would get more actual orders.

 

[Swyse]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Even though the Zebro has more discussion surrounding it, I'd bet that hybrids would get more actual orders.

I think a lot of people (if I'm way off let me know), including me would be nearly equally happy with a matching "hybrid" style pickup for the neck to match the regular 59/custom hybrid bridge as a regular production pickup instead of the whole set as a forum run. Maybe something like the 59/Jazz Hybrid BachToRock suggested in his original post over 10 years ago. I see a lot of talk about it not being special enough as a custom shop forum pickup concept.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The main reason I'm not really enthusiastic for the Hybrid is completely selfish. I am only interested in a bridge pickup, and a neck to match the '59/Custom Hybrid would be cool, but I simply wouldn't buy it. Sure, we're tagging on a modified '59/Custom Hybrid, but here are my thoughts: it's going to have to be different enough to justify paying for a Custom Shop pickup over the cheaper production pickup. At the same time, if it is too different, people will complain about it not being anywhere near a '59/Custom Hybrid. That's why I'm not too excited over the design - and I probably wouldn't buy it. The whole ****storm around the forum pickup is also starting to make me lose interest all together. I think I'll show myself out soon and come back to see what is actually being made and then decide if I want to order.