Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

To be fair, there IS a P-90 in a bucker route, it's called the Phat Cat.

The idea with the Zebro is a hum-canceling pickup that fits a bucker route with a sound in the P-90 ballpark.
The whole 3+3 design definition is a hold-over from the Z-90 days that's, frankly, obsolete in the sense that we never agreed to telling the SD CS how to build it. If they decide to use it themselves then so be it but we are not telling them to.
EDIT: apologies, it seems I remembered wrong, there is indeed a split coil requirement in the description.
I still maintain that it would be best if we were to drop it in lieu of asking the CS to decide the best course of action, while perhaps nudging them towards the construction in the form of a suggestion/idea.

I know about the phat cat. I was just saying why build a forum pickup around something that's going to sound in the ball park of a P90 when you could just go with a bucker sized P90... Sure it would have hum but I'd rather sacrifice hum then tone...

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

See, this is why I tried to get more attention on Orpheo's pickup but it never went anywhere. It's structured like a phat cat so it would get much closer to the P90 tonality. It also had a tap for dual voicing. It's already worked out on the technical level, and would probably cost less a Zebro.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I do think a lot of the talk regarding the Zebro is whether it will or will not work, not a good start but expected.

TBH I would be more interested in the hybrid but I agree with Myaccount876 in that we shot ourselves in the foot with the whole 59/Custom requirement. I have held on saying this sooner but I think it'd be opening more options if we were to drop the "we want a new bridge but the neck should match the current 59/C as well" requirement and only keep it as a starting point to get the CS a better idea of what we want.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

^But most of the support for the hybrid started with having a neck match for the 59/Custom. Kinda hard to just throw that out.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The problem with your comment is that the shape of the magnetic field directly influences the sound thats generated... You cannot get away from that. You yourself proved and shot yourself in the foot the time you yanked the pole screws out of your BKP and its still produced sound. The only changes that occurred there were changes to the shape of the magnetic field.

Coming from the guy who doesn't think pole pieces and screws are magnetised, this is rich. In short, you are clearly out of touch with reality. There were changes that occurred.

And it produced almost no sound. Which means you were wrong, just unable to see it. There was a minor bit of sound produced which was almost no sound. I have had stronger signals from bleedthrough in factory amps. The changes were indeed more than the shape of the magnetic field, the larger change was that it drastically changed the distant from the magnet to the string since the screws are magnetized by the bar magnet. (Even if you don't believe it)

The fact is, a pickup is a total system and we can't hear the magnetic field's shape. (Seriously, some people are ridiculous if they don't realize we can only hear sound.) The magnetic field is but one piece of the sound of a pickup.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I can certainly see why participation in these projects has been dropping over the years. XXSIVE almost quit the crazy 8 project, the Stra-bro was almost abandoned, and the leader of the fugly bucker polls doesn't post much (or at all) anymore. Though the last one may be unrelated.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I really like the idea of a p90 voiced humbucker. I don't care if it has central poles, z coils, or standard humbucker coils myself. Personally I think the voicing and form factor is all I really care about.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The recent direction of this thread has got me thinking - would people be more interested in the zebro if we ditched the Z idea and just asked for a hum cancelling p90 in a humbucker route? After all, that was the original purpose of the idea, and if the Z part is turning people off, we should ask how crucial to the end result it really is.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

^But most of the support for the hybrid started with having a neck match for the 59/Custom. Kinda hard to just throw that out.

I understand that which is why I hesitated saying anything thus far but, truth is we'd be asking from the CS to kinda try to be standing on two boats. It'll be exhaustive and to be frank, will push them into making the bridge a 59/C rehash even more.
I'm not saying ditch the C/59 completely but remove it from the limelight and put it in the backdrop, make it a point of reference but don't keep the neck pu directly tied to it.

The recent direction of this thread has got me thinking - would people be more interested in the zebro if we ditched the Z idea and just asked for a hum cancelling p90 in a humbucker route? After all, that was the original purpose of the idea, and if the Z part is turning people off, we should ask how crucial to the end result it really is.

I fully agree with the above statement. The Zebro may have started life as a continuation of the Z-90 idea but in the end, people flocked to it for the humcanceling P-90 idea, not the Z construction. Like above, why limit the CS?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The recent direction of this thread has got me thinking - would people be more interested in the zebro if we ditched the Z idea and just asked for a hum cancelling p90 in a humbucker route? After all, that was the original purpose of the idea, and if the Z part is turning people off, we should ask how crucial to the end result it really is.

I would

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Coming from the guy who doesn't think pole pieces and screws are magnetised, this is rich. In short, you are clearly out of touch with reality. There were changes that occurred.

And it produced almost no sound. Which means you were wrong, just unable to see it. There was a minor bit of sound produced which was almost no sound. I have had stronger signals from bleedthrough in factory amps. The changes were indeed more than the shape of the magnetic field, the larger change was that it drastically changed the distant from the magnet to the string since the screws are magnetized by the bar magnet. (Even if you don't believe it)

The fact is, a pickup is a total system and we can't hear the magnetic field's shape. (Seriously, some people are ridiculous if they don't realize we can only hear sound.) The magnetic field is but one piece of the sound of a pickup.

We already went over it if you want to take it up again your welcome to PM me and ill teach you a few things.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The recent direction of this thread has got me thinking - would people be more interested in the zebro if we ditched the Z idea and just asked for a hum cancelling p90 in a humbucker route? After all, that was the original purpose of the idea, and if the Z part is turning people off, we should ask how crucial to the end result it really is.

This. I'm starting to think the forum should just completely ditch the two Hybrid and Z-coil constructions, and just give a no BS description of the sound we want. Let the Custom Shop go nuts. Does it really have to be a hybrid to sound good? Does it really have to be Z-coil to sound good? How about just telling the Custom Shop to make a humbucker that just sounds good? This thing just becomes more and more of a mess, and we've lost focus IMO.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

This. I'm starting to think the forum should just completely ditch the two Hybrid and Z-coil constructions, and just give a no BS description of the sound we want. Let the Custom Shop go nuts. Does it really have to be a hybrid to sound good? Does it really have to be Z-coil to sound good? How about just telling the Custom Shop to make a humbucker that just sounds good? This thing just becomes more and more of a mess, and we've lost focus IMO.

Then it's not really a "forum" pickup designed by the forum... it's a pickup loosely framed by the forum. The custom shop is the means to make it happen. We are supposed to be the ones designing it... obviously we've gotten a bit off track but that's no reason to give up on a bona fide forum designed pickup.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

This. I'm starting to think the forum should just completely ditch the two Hybrid and Z-coil constructions, and just give a no BS description of the sound we want. Let the Custom Shop go nuts. Does it really have to be a hybrid to sound good? Does it really have to be Z-coil to sound good? How about just telling the Custom Shop to make a humbucker that just sounds good? This thing just becomes more and more of a mess, and we've lost focus IMO.

I'm not sure we ever had focus. There are too many people wanting too many different things. That is to be expected though. Let's face it, the Brobucker was just a perfect combination of factors. The gap in SD's lineup was there, and the forum customers were there with the desire for it. The design was reasonable enough to make it sound great. All the other forum designs after only have a very small group of individuals who truly love those pickups, but the Brobucker still has massive appeal almost a decade later.

So I'm with ya when you say we should just have them make something good. Several people think a basic humbucker or a hybrid is boring, or that it is a wasted opportunity, but wouldn't you all rather have something that is truly great sounding?

Firebirdguy, I know where you are coming from, but we've tried many times, and with many different approaches to make a group design work, it just seems to always break down.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I'm totally against deviating from one of the two options we have narrowed this down to. Whatever method we use to pick one or the other, let's just do it; but it should be one or the other that we have it narrowed down to so far. Changing things now in order to come up with something other than one of those two is totally disrespectful of the entire process thus far, and those who have put a lot of time and energy into it. It makes it so I've wasted my time, and been fooled into thinking all the polls and all the posts actually meant something, and that does not rub me the right way.

Here is what I propose: have the Custom shop make one set of each option, and do quality, comprehensive video demos of each. Then re-do the vote that ended with a tie. Disable commentary in this final poll thread, close all of the 2015 forum pickup related threads, and bar any discussion of the forum pickup during the time the poll is open. Also, only let forum members who signed up before Jan. 1, 2015 vote. If this can't be done in the forum settings, then just make it a public vote in which we cast our vote by posting a single-word message ("Zebro" or "Humbucker" – NOT "Hybrid," as it isn't a hybrid) –no other discussion allowed, just a single word vote. If you say anything else, your vote gets trashed and you can't vote again. Let's just shut the hell up and let it be video demo of an actual product vs. video demo of another actual product, and nothing else – the way it should have been done in the first place. I'm sick of hearing non-experts arguing about things that don't even exist (and, yes, that includes myself).

Then, on this forum, auction off the prototype set from the pair that does not win, in order to cover some of the cost of its R&D and video demos, as well as make one person who really wanted that pickup very happy with that one-of-a-kind pickup set.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I'd be down with a request for a P-90 voiced humbucker without specifying the how. I think that it's something that other pickup makers have tried with varying degrees of success, and no one's hit it out of the park yet. To me, hitting out of the park isn't making it sound exactly like a P-90, but creating a sound that captures most of what a P-90 is about, that you really want in your guitar if you like P-90s. It's been done several times for noiseless Strat Pickups IMHO, but never with P-90s. If someone's gonna do it eventually, why not the Custom Shop?

Part of what's weird about a P-90 is that everyone's dream P-90 is different. The classic P-90 sounds can be almost boxy to downright piano-like. Some of the original P-90s are some of the worst sounding pickups ever, while others are near-perfect. You've got a lot of room to find something good without being too pinned down.

I also second the earlier comment about neck pickups, whether fake P-90 or hybrid. I don't use the neck pickup much and have resolved to use stock, or whatever anyone is selling used, or GFS/Tonerider/Entwistle for neck pickups. I wonder what percentage of pickups sold are bridge pickups? And what percentage of neck buckers sold are either 59 or Jazz? Generally folks seem to be dissatisfied with their bridge pickups and think their neck pickups are just fine.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Making a sample of both and doing videos of each is a good idea. I still wish more people were interesting in the project.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

For the record: the idea of a neck p'up to tone- AND output-wise match the '59/Custom was mine. The only spec I suggested was to be double-screw. I think this is a very clear description of the VOICING of the p'up.

However, I guess it's just that people assume the only way to match a hybrid bridge p'up is with a hybrid neck p'up. Plus, Bach2Rock's '59/Jazz neck p'up idea had many happy campers over the 10+ years this idea came to light, so I just can't blame anyone for the assumptions.

Having said that, for the record, I've NEVER said and/or even suggested this p'up to be a Hybrid. That'll be for the Custom Shop to decide. It's all about the voicing.

Another note: the Duncan Co. already has a hum-bucking P-90: it's called the P-90 Stack. I think an idea would be to ask a tweaking of this design to fit a HB route and maybe with a voicing tweaking towards being more clear. Or we can ask for a set.

Let me know what you think.

 

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I can certainly see why participation in these projects has been dropping over the years. XXSIVE almost quit the crazy 8 project, the Stra-bro was almost abandoned, and the leader of the fugly bucker polls doesn't post much (or at all) anymore. Though the last one may be unrelated.

There's so much accumulated ill will on this forum (even well before I began posting regularly) that I was surprised forum pickups were even a thing, like how there was enough agreement to result in a StraBro 90 or a BroBucker seemed hard to fathom and I was looking forward to seeing something magically come together, but in the end, this what has happened is pretty much what I would have expected.

I would like to be enthusiastic about the Zebro, and I will buy a neck and bridge set, but the lack of response form the Custom Shop regarding your inquiry makes me think they're not really enthusiastic about these proceedings, and here I'm being someone generous in buying a couple custom made pickups I wouldn't have had cause to buy otherwise.

OTOH I don't want the custom shop to think I'm ungrateful for what they do when they're not answering emails. Someone made the remark that they expect a lot from the custom shop, charging $150 for $3 worth of raw materials, but that's flawed math, $150 seems like a steel to get a custom made component from the most reputable pickup maker in the business.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Having said that, for the record, I've NEVER said and/or even suggested this p'up to be a Hybrid.

Are you sure about that?