Gibson finally does it right

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

They HAVE been doing it right, for a REALLY long time. They're just not adding a bunch of "pro" features that a lot of pros don't even find necessary.

I mean the coil taps and the locking tuners are sweet options to have but honestly, a good Les Paul is EXTREMELY easy to come by...because most of them are awesome by design.

But yeah, that MIK Ibanez you're rocking, that's gonna have the build quality and the tone all day huh? :smokin: Now i understand that there's a price difference there...but Ibanez has guitars in this price range too, with lots of features i don't find necessary. Are they doing it WRONG or what?

it sucks how cheap asian labor has made honest American products seem like such a luxury item. 50 years ago an aspiring guitarist would pick one guitar and play it...now we think we all have to have a stable of axes like a **** rock star...i'm guilty of it too but i'm just starting to realize that a room full of cheap instruments is nowhere near as cool as one or two really really sweet ones...

I'm talking mainly about some of the QC issues people have had with models like the Les Paul Standard in the past. A guitar of that price should be nothing less than perfect from factory each and every time. The fact some people have had to get refrets and fret work done on some of them is unacceptable.
Yes, true most examples coming out the factory are probably great, but I believe at that price ALL of them should have.
I can respect that Gibson have now lifted the bar by using the PLEK machines on some of their models, that is a move that I believe many other mainstream manufacturers should take a look at doing.

For reference, the RG 7421 is a Japanese made guitar and the quality absolutely destroys any MIK Ibanez I've played by miles.
Does it have the tone of a Gibson? No.
Do I require the tone of a Gibson? No.
I use 7 strings and use a super strat because that is the tool I require for the music I play. There are plenty of pro recordings that have been done with the Japanese made RG 7420/7421/7621/7621 models and often all they ever needed was a pickup swap at the bridge for a Dimarzio. The sustain and the tone is there.

Do I feel it matches the quality of an MIA Gibson? Maybe it doesn't, but I'm honestly not bothered because I don't get along with 6 strings, I don't get along with LP body shapes, I don't get along with 24.75 inch scale lengths and I don't get along with the LP neck profile.

I totally agree with you on having a few amazing guitars and not a room full of decent ones.
I personally don't own more than a few guitars anyway.
Yes, I can get a guitar better than my Ibanez, so one day I'll sell it to fund several custom made guitars, since I wont need my Ibanez and I'm a believer than unless a guitar is getting played very regularly then I shouldn't be keeping it, it should be sold to someone who WILL play it regularly, because guitars are not collectors items, they are devices for making music (unless the guitar happens to be an actual collectors item, but otherwise a bog standard Les Paul, Strat, Tele, Ibanez RG etc does not count as a collectors item to my mind).
Give me 4 custom made guitars, each with different pickup configurations for various recording and live playing applications and that is all I'd need.
For what I wont be spending on 50 different guitars, I'll put that money towrds my other interests instead.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

It's cool that we can disagree on so many fundamental things and still have the same frame of mind. i can dig :smokin:

Anyway man, ALL factories are gonna have small problems. My shop has had to send back something from everybody since i've been there in October. We had a Les Paul Studio with a giant chunk out of the side, every single one of the first batch of Peavey Vypyrs had to go back, and we had a Joe Satriani Ibanez with the Silver Surfer graphic on it with a neck that no amount of truss rod adjustment could straighten.

That's why most expensive guitars come with factory warranties, and lots of good guitar shops have skilled techs...because mass-producing something made of wood isn't like mass-producing plastic or metal or anything like that. Wood is inconsistent.

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I don´t know how GIbson´s pricing scheme works, but if they have a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) setup like most others do, then I would highly recommend editing your post.

Unfortunately, this wouldn´t be the first time that a random post on a forum was legally construed as a MAP violation (because an internet forum is legally a "Printed Media"), ultimately meaning a breach of contract by the dealer and a loss of the dealership.

That´s the main reasion that everybody says "Call or email for price" and merely posts the same MAP on their site as everyone else, because having a lower price listed anywhere else that can be traced to your dealership can and often will cost you said dealership...

Customers are not bound by the dealer's contract, nor are dealers responsible to bind their customers in order to provide a lower than MAP price. All it means is the dealer cannot advertise lower than MAP, it has nothing to do with customers. Customers can say what they want.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

Customers are not bound by the dealer's contract, nor are dealers responsible to bind their customers in order to provide a lower than MAP price. All it means is the dealer cannot advertise lower than MAP, it has nothing to do with customers. Customers can say what they want.

And this is why for example J/C dealers used to get nailed on a regular basis for it when people posted their new purchases at smoking prices over on the JCF? And accordingly the reason why any post quoting something lower than MAP get´s nuked harder than the Bikini Atoll over there? You mean it was all just in our heads? Nobody ever got an evil letter or lost their Dealership?

The fact of the matter is that simply posting "XYZ is selling ABC for 123.-" on an internet forum can and will be construed as advertising by the evil lawyers of corporations.

I never said I agreed with it, nor that´s it´s fair play from my viewpoint, or even really legal for that matter. Just that it´s the way it is in a capitalist state with lawyers running amok left and right trying to find the next big fish so they can pay off the other half of their luxury home. :beerchug:

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I don't see how they can do that. I'm the customer, and you're telling me I cannot discuss what I bought and where for how much? So if I buy a Dodge below sticker and say something, the ninjas will come and take away the dealership? I think it's more internet lore than real life. If there's a real problem with dealers advertising in a form of ruse such as making posts in order to get the word out, and the manufacturer can show that, that's on them. But I am not bound as a customer from disclosing what I bought and where I bought it. That's jsut crazy.

I bought my LP Trad Pro from GC for $xxxxout the door.

I bought my PRS Mira for $xxxx out the door from Chuck Levins.

I bought my 61RI SG from CCity Music for $xxxx + CA sales tax

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I bought my LP Trad Pro from GC for $xxxxout the door.

I bought my PRS Mira for $xxxx out the door from Chuck Levins.

I bought my 61RI SG from CCity Music for $xxxx + CA sales tax

LOL, I edited my own prices out when I realized I get such killer deals I was hurting my own resale value

 

[kherman]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I don´t know how GIbson´s pricing scheme works, but if they have a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) setup like most others do, then I would highly recommend editing your post.

Unfortunately, this wouldn´t be the first time that a random post on a forum was legally construed as a MAP violation (because an internet forum is legally a "Printed Media"), ultimately meaning a breach of contract by the dealer and a loss of the dealership.

That´s the main reasion that everybody says "Call or email for price" and merely posts the same MAP on their site as everyone else, because having a lower price listed anywhere else that can be traced to your dealership can and often will cost you said dealership...

Hmmm, interesting.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

This guitar is haunting me ya'll... I am normally able to dismiss most of the Les pauls that I play due to the price tag and normally I can either find fault or just that it doesnt feel right.. Both times Ive played one of these, it felt good and sounded great... And, even tho its more than Id like to pay, I dont feel its obscene. I even got my studio out to see if I was just having LP withdrawals and I was reminded why Im selling it.. Ok, but nothing stellar..
But I cant stop thinking about this model.. I keep trying to stop.. I cant afford a commitment like this...

I guess now I can name one benefit to having my credit completely wrecked by a spouse.. I CANT get financed..

 

[metlking]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I just sold some gear so I've got money burning a hole in my pocket.....I'm gonna try to hit Guitar Denter tomorrow to check this axe out! I need another Les Paul!!!

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

I don't see how they can do that. I'm the customer, and you're telling me I cannot discuss what I bought and where for how much? So if I buy a Dodge below sticker and say something, the ninjas will come and take away the dealership? I think it's more internet lore than real life. If there's a real problem with dealers advertising in a form of ruse such as making posts in order to get the word out, and the manufacturer can show that, that's on them. But I am not bound as a customer from disclosing what I bought and where I bought it. That's jsut crazy.
....

Once again, I don´t feel it´s correct either. But the fact of the matter is still that a post on an internet forum can and often will be construed as a MAP violation.

I don´t know how Dodge sets their prices and what their contracts with dealers look like, so no Idea on that specific case.

I DO know that Jackson /Charvel and SD for example have MAP agreements with the dealers.

MAP means: You as a dealer are not allowed to advertise a price lower than XXX.XX dollars for this product, or we will take your dealership away for violation of contract. This is why for example www.mattsmusic.com, www.themusiczoo.com, www. vwallguitars.com, www.drumcityguitarland.com, www.themusiczoo.com, www.musiciansfriend.com, www.onlinestagegear.com, .... all have IDENTICAL prices for Jackson guitars. The purpose is to keep the big box stores from running the smaller dealers out of business by leveling the playing field in advertising.

If I were to call up Dealer xxx and get a quote for say a Jackson DK-1, that quote is let´s say 2-3-400$ under MAP, and I post that on the internet, then that is advertising. Not paid advertising, but advertising nonetheless. And Lawyers can and will manipulate that fact to the point where they can earn money, quite the easy task since most large corporations have a much larger legal department than a Mom and Pop store or even most chains. Also becasue it´s MUCH easier for them to prove that a price lower than MAP was in print that it is for the dealer to prove that he didn´t know about it.... he did after all sell the guitar to poster or at least give him the quote. SO we have an accusation w/ proof (even if flimsy), and no way to tangibly prove his innocence without spending a large amount of cash..

Seeing as "innocent until proven guilty" looks great on paper but has long left the MO of the legal system in most western countries, I think it becomes pretty clear wherer the problem lies.

In a nutshell this is what happens:

The Manuf. says "YOU broke your contract, you had that guy post that for you in a bid to sell more guitars"
The dealer says "No I didn´t, why on earth would I?"
Man. "Like we said, to sell more guitars"
Deal. "Can you present some form of proof of this wild accusation?"
Man. "Yes, We can, here´s his post on forum XYZ stating that you´re selling guitar Z for xxx.xx$"
Deal. "And that´s proof that I put him up to it??? Maybe he was just so stoked about a good deal that he wanted to tell his buddies??"
Man. "Can you prove this? Can you present a bill of sale?"
Deal. "As a matter of fact I can, here´s a copy of the Invoice" (if the guy only got a quote the dealer is already dead in the water at this point)
Man. "Good, that´s a start . And can you now prove that you didn´t tell him to `spread the word´ and thereby drum up business for you?"
Deal. "As a matter of fact, no, I can´t. Last I recall there was Freedom of Speech in this country...."
Man. "Freedom of Speech is not Freedom to tell people to help you violate your contract by advertising prices lower than you´re allowed to."
Deal. "How about a signed statement from the customer that he didn´t know and won´t do it again?"
Man. "And what about signed statements from the rest of your customer base? Who´s to say it won´t happen again tomorrow? We are stripping you of your dealership, period"

At this point the dealer can either buckle, or take the whole shebang to court and waste unnecessary time and money proving something he shouldn´t have to prove. And of course suing the hand that feeds you is generally a bad idea in the first place, so it´s now a Lose/Lose situation for the dealer.

Many MAP agreements are close to being illegal anyway, what with things like Price fixing and Antitrust laws in place.... Doesn`t keep manufacturers from having dealers sign them, though, becasue customers WANT the product.... And as a dealer, that´s just the **** you have to shovel to get by

If the manufacturer does NOT have a MAP agreement in place, the dealer and any customer can essentially post whatever they want. It essentially depends on the Brand.

 

[Rich_T]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

Perfect..! Does it come in Geckoburst?

The thread title says "Gibson finally does it right"... so, I doubt it.




zing!

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

Once again, I don´t feel it´s correct either. But the fact of the matter is still that a post on an internet forum can and often will be construed as a MAP violation.

I don´t know how Dodge sets their prices and what their contracts with dealers look like, so no Idea on that specific case.

I DO know that Jackson /Charvel and SD for example have MAP agreements with the dealers.

MAP means: You as a dealer are not allowed to advertise a price lower than XXX.XX dollars for this product, or we will take your dealership away for violation of contract. This is why for example www.mattsmusic.com, www.themusiczoo.com, www. vwallguitars.com, www.drumcityguitarland.com, www.themusiczoo.com, www.musiciansfriend.com, www.onlinestagegear.com, .... all have IDENTICAL prices for Jackson guitars. The purpose is to keep the big box stores from running the smaller dealers out of business by leveling the playing field in advertising.

If I were to call up Dealer xxx and get a quote for say a Jackson DK-1, that quote is let´s say 2-3-400$ under MAP, and I post that on the internet, then that is advertising. Not paid advertising, but advertising nonetheless. And Lawyers can and will manipulate that fact to the point where they can earn money, quite the easy task since most large corporations have a much larger legal department than a Mom and Pop store or even most chains. Also becasue it´s MUCH easier for them to prove that a price lower than MAP was in print that it is for the dealer to prove that he didn´t know about it.... he did after all sell the guitar to poster or at least give him the quote. SO we have an accusation w/ proof (even if flimsy), and no way to tangibly prove his innocence without spending a large amount of cash..

Seeing as "innocent until proven guilty" looks great on paper but has long left the MO of the legal system in most western countries, I think it becomes pretty clear wherer the problem lies.

In a nutshell this is what happens:

The Manuf. says "YOU broke your contract, you had that guy post that for you in a bid to sell more guitars"
The dealer says "No I didn´t, why on earth would I?"
Man. "Like we said, to sell more guitars"
Deal. "Can you present some form of proof of this wild accusation?"
Man. "Yes, We can, here´s his post on forum XYZ stating that you´re selling guitar Z for xxx.xx$"
Deal. "And that´s proof that I put him up to it??? Maybe he was just so stoked about a good deal that he wanted to tell his buddies??"
Man. "Can you prove this? Can you present a bill of sale?"
Deal. "As a matter of fact I can, here´s a copy of the Invoice" (if the guy only got a quote the dealer is already dead in the water at this point)
Man. "Good, that´s a start . And can you now prove that you didn´t tell him to `spread the word´ and thereby drum up business for you?"
Deal. "As a matter of fact, no, I can´t. Last I recall there was Freedom of Speech in this country...."
Man. "Freedom of Speech is not Freedom to tell people to help you violate your contract by advertising prices lower than you´re allowed to."
Deal. "How about a signed statement from the customer that he didn´t know and won´t do it again?"
Man. "And what about signed statements from the rest of your customer base? Who´s to say it won´t happen again tomorrow? We are stripping you of your dealership, period"

At this point the dealer can either buckle, or take the whole shebang to court and waste unnecessary time and money proving something he shouldn´t have to prove. And of course suing the hand that feeds you is generally a bad idea in the first place, so it´s now a Lose/Lose situation for the dealer.

Many MAP agreements are close to being illegal anyway, what with things like Price fixing and Antitrust laws in place.... Doesn`t keep manufacturers from having dealers sign them, though, becasue customers WANT the product.... And as a dealer, that´s just the **** you have to shovel to get by

If the manufacturer does NOT have a MAP agreement in place, the dealer and any customer can essentially post whatever they want. It essentially depends on the Brand.

You're putting way too much effort into your point. Mine is simple, I'm not an employee - I'll say what I want

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

That's the first Les Paul to ever give me the WANT, TattooedCarrot.

E.P., you have an interesting point. My actions would show that I disagree, but I appreciate the point.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Gibson finally does it right

Aw man.. Played one at GC today for about an hour thru a PV JSX.. Man, it sounded great clean and at full tilt..

Need a kidney???