Gibson Last straw...

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Re: Gibson Last straw...

(Side note: This is part of the reason that everyone started buying far east knockoffs with stolen technology vs the originals a few decades ago, because the difference in quality was lost on them, the function was essentially the same, and the price thereby became the main factor. This applies to more or less all consumer industries in what has become a "Tear off, use, ball up and throw away society")

Stolen technology? How is it stolen when guitar companies go to other countries with blueprints and want things built, and are only there to take advantage of their cheaper labor costs? I'm confused. These American companies went there in the first place to make cheaper products, so it's not that quality was lost on them (as if somehow ethnically they don't get the concept), it's more like what they were asked to make by the company.

Quality isn't a function of where it's made necessarily, but more a function of cost. It's cheaper to have one quality inspector take a quick glance at a guitar and strum one chord (maybe, if you're lucky) than have two take one hour each to inspect the dickens out of each instrument.

So if Gibson goes overseas to have cheap instruments built, they went there with that main intent, so at that point they're also intentionally compromising on quality, which is a function more of cost of labor and precision than of the country itself, ethnically speaking.

This is why South Korea needs to have a company come forward that makes its own guitars and does a much better QA/QC job than Gibson: they'd blow them out of the water. Look at Schecter: guitars made in Korea, set up in the states. They are capable of quality, as is any other country, but it's more a function of price in my opinion. Case in point: buy a Tommy Kaira ZZ (afaik Japanese make). There are examples of both budget and luxury cars from Germany, Italy, and Japan, and I could bet easily that there would be one from South Korea if I bothered to look long enough. For example, the bus ride from Seoul airport to Gunsan, South Korea: Seoul as a city is very elegant: it puts most any major city I've driven through to shame.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Twin, did you read the entire passage you quoted? it was , as stated, NOT guitar specific. And that a company ghostbuilding for somebody using that company´s ideas and technology, then turning around and producing an identical product which they sell under their own name for cheaper because the patents don´t apply in thir country is not stealing technology is something I have a hard time buying into. The most notable examples of this can be found in the automobile and consumer electronics industries and not in the guitar industry´... though there we also have Ibanez, ESP, Tokai and numerous other companies thet made their entire name building what were essentially forgeries of US products incl trademarked details even down to stylizing the company and model name to look like the original script.

Note that I am not passing judgement on this practice because Í´ve grown weary of that discussion, but it cannot be denied that it is what happened. This is the reason that so many "lawsuit" guitars from the old days exist, becasue the companies WERE sued over their forgeries, and in most cases either lost or backed off fast.. ;)
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

This is why South Korea needs to have a company come forward that makes its own guitars and does a much better QA/QC job than Gibson: they'd blow them out of the water. Look at Schecter: guitars made in Korea, set up in the states. They are capable of quality, as is any other country, but it's more a function of price in my opinion. Case in point: buy a Tommy Kaira ZZ (afaik Japanese make). There are examples of both budget and luxury cars from Germany, Italy, and Japan, and I could bet easily that there would be one from South Korea if I bothered to look long enough. For example, the bus ride from Seoul airport to Gunsan, South Korea: Seoul as a city is very elegant: it puts most any major city I've driven through to shame.
Erm, not really building Gibson-style guitars (though they have some in the past) but Swing is a Korean company who build their own guitars and IMO their quality is outstanding regardless of price!

Now if you wanna talk about Indonesia, then there's always Marlique Guitars that build the most amazing SG-ish guitars I've seen but you'd have to get past the fact that their using high quality, hand selected Indonesian wood with funny names that you haven't heard of.

And, if that's not enough for you, as per Schecter there's also Michael Kelly, same deal, same great (if not even better) quality.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

I don't know why y'all keep saying that LP's cost $4k. I can walk into pretty much any Guitar Satan in the country, and if I know how talk to the monkeys working there, I can walk out with a LP standard for under $2k.

So are you guys talking about their Custom pieces?
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Here is the final blow.. Im looking at a car magazine today and see a pic of an old Explorer (with bigsby, yuck)... The ad talks about how a guy bought this for his son for $247.50 (something like that) way back when and just auctioned it off for $611,000. And the whole thing is about how they are collectable and you could be half a million richer for buying a Gibson.. And to invest, call your local dealer..
NOWHERE does it discuss that they make music, or that they play good or anything.. You remember "only a Gibson is good enough"?? This says to me that they ONLY want the collector willing to dole out obscene money and prob doesnt care if it plays worth a crap or not.
This says exactly what many of us had suspected for a long time: that though they look like instruments and are sold where gear is sold, they are not gear to make music with.

I buy instruments and gear to make music, hence I have no interest in a Gibson.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

I don't know why y'all keep saying that LP's cost $4k. I can walk into pretty much any Guitar Satan in the country, and if I know how talk to the monkeys working there, I can walk out with a LP standard for under $2k.

So are you guys talking about their Custom pieces?

Im talking in general. If I open a musician's fiend or ams or nearly any others, there is the: Studio, (now $1300) The standards ( 2200-2500), The GOW model (2200-2500) and then 2 pages of 3500-6000 guitars.
And many of the standards Ive picked up, feel very unfinished or shoddy.

Some are avail , but to get the fit and finish I EXPECT from a Gibson, I need a second mortgage..
Thats my point. I mean the BFG is affordable, but one of its "features" is being raw and unfinished. BFD..
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Maybe you've played some bad standards (I know I have), but I've also played some nice ones, and some nice studios.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

In Finland, Gibson Les Paul STD costs just shy of $ 4000. Somehow, I can't imagine getting one.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

This is my favorite guitar.

It's a Gibson.

It cost me $3,000.

It was worth every penny.

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Re: Gibson Last straw...

Here's another one of my favorite guitars. It's also a Gibson. It's also really old. It must be worth a lot of money.

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Re: Gibson Last straw...

Maybe you've played some bad standards (I know I have), but I've also played some nice ones, and some nice studios.

No doubt Benjy, My studio is really nice. plays and sounds good. But there are gaps at fret ends, and the edge of the fretboard has so many waves as if it were hand sanded. Appears that ALOT less care went into that one than my Michael Kelly that was 1/3 the price
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Keep in mind tht Gibson shoots their guitars in nitro, which allows weather to affect guitar's wood more than a thick poly finish found on some axes. Perhaps it's not the sole reason for the bad frets on some Gibsons, but it might be a factor. This is epsecially true when a new guitar is shipped from Nashville to a place like my city, which sits smack dab in the middle of a huge desert.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Twin, did you read the entire passage you quoted? it was , as stated, NOT guitar specific. And that a company ghost building for somebody using that company´s ideas and technology, then turning around and producing an identical product which they sell under their own name for cheaper because the patents don´t apply in their country is not stealing technology is something I have a hard time buying into. The most notable examples of this can be found in the automobile and consumer electronics industries and not in the guitar industry´... though there we also have Ibanez, ESP, Tokai and numerous other companies that made their entire name building what were essentially forgeries of US products incl trademarked details even down to stylizing the company and model name to look like the original script.

I'm just trying to figure out how Gibson, contracting (for example) Cort to build some Epiphones is stealing technology. Or am I confused? I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about.

Besides, I don't understand what technology they're stealing. Haven't guitars been made for like centuries? Are we talking someone stealing some Variax stuff?

benjy_26 said:
Keep in mind that Gibson shoots their guitars in nitro, which allows weather to affect guitar's wood more than a thick poly finish found on some axes. Perhaps it's not the sole reason for the bad frets on some Gibsons, but it might be a factor. This is especially true when a new guitar is shipped from Nashville to a place like my city, which sits smack dab in the middle of a huge desert.

But if we're paying that much, shouldn't they be shooting them in something else?
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

Nitro is supposed to be the finish of choice for the traditionalists.

In any case however, I don't know of a poly finished rosewood/ebony fretboard so I highly doubt that that could be the reason for a bad fretjob/fretboard sanding...

Plus, if a Gibson has to go to any US city from Nashville and you think that a valid reason for sth like that then imagine those axes that have to travel in ships from across the Atlantic, or worse...
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

It's a guitar. It's a tool. Don't like it, don't buy it.

However

I do think it's awkward for a company to charge the prices they do for a consistancy as shoddy. I've not played many Gibsons. But EVERY GIBSON I'VE EVER PLAYED (not joking) had some issues. Everyone. In the UK they're over 4,000 bucks and I don't see myself paying that much for a guitar as flawed as they were. I'm not expecting perfection because I believe it can't exist. But I've played Squiers that were better built and more consistent. It doesn't mean good Gibsons don't exist. Just means that at this price, shouldn't they all be good?

But like I said... if I don't like Gibsons, I stay away from them. It's that simple.

That comment about 'the one' could be about just about any guitars out there. If you don't like that sound it can even apply to every guitars out there BUT Gibsons.
 
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Re: Gibson Last straw...

If Gibson's prices were half of what they are now, there would be a lot less complaining. Slapping on a price tag that high is an assurance that you're getting a guitar worth that much: quality, consistency, attention to detail, etc. When they can't do that 99% of the time, they need to adjust their prices downward to be competitive with other guitars of similar quality.

If half the Gibson or ex-Gibson owners think their guitars are worth the retail price, then that's a huge problem, as virtually all of them should feel that way. Boils down to them being over-priced, period, and the spiraling economy will force them to rethink their pricing. Car manufacturers are begging people to buy their cars, with all kinds of deals and incentives. Gibson will have to too at some point. Being ridiculously over-priced is a fun game in a booming economy, a status thing, but that only lasts so long. Now it's not funny anymore.
 
Re: Gibson Last straw...

I'm with John Ruskin on this. "A thing is worth what it does for you, not what you paid for it."

Having said that, I think that a Gibson, as a US built guitar is worth two grand, or four grand in dollars. I base my opinion on the fact that most of us have been led to believe the value of a musical instrument built of disparate materials and assembled with a high degree of precision should be cheaper and that we have been conditioned to believe this by the inordinately low prices attached to high quality imported instruments. The imponderable gulf that exists between the costs of manufacture in the emerging economies and that of the developed nations of Europe America and Australia/New Zealand allows manufacturers in Asia and the Pacific Rim nations an unprecedented level of leeway in fixing their prices, such is the low cost of labour in these countries. a guitar made in China can be made with a considerable input of skilled labour and man hours yet still cost a fraction of what it would cost to produce the same guitar in Milwaukee or Coventry..

As for Gibson's inflated prices, excuse me, but which of you here, if you discovered that you could buy something for 2 dollars which you could flog on e-bay for $2000 wouldn't be tripping over themselves in the mad rush to the computer keyboard? That's how trade, and capitalism works. Price is set by the rule of supply and demand. But it's you guys set the rules; don't ***** about it now just because someone else is playing by them and winning...

There's been no bigger critic of Gibson's quality control and design and manufacturing processes on here than me but credit where credit's due I say, they are probably the only manufacturer whose price structure is truly realistic.

I always remember being told as a student guitar maker that in the Renaissance a musician buying a Lute was a purchase comparable to that of a present day rock star buying a private jet...
 
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