Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

[Mr. B]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

What would be cool for those of us who do not rake in 6 figure incomes is if Gibson would sell finished bodies with pleked frets and a pre cut nut WITHOUT all the assembly work done. I wouldn't mind a bit to receive a body and a box-o-parts and do the assembly/setup/wiring myself. I don't even want their pickups. If that would shave off about 1000 dollars from the now increasing price of an ES335, I'd go for it.

Like I said, I've saved up and paid for multiple American made Gibsons in the past, but with prices increasing again and again, and my teaching salary having been frozen for the last 5 years, they are now out of my price range. I bought a 2012 SG Standard from Sweetwater just a couple of years ago when they were being sold for 700 dollars on every online retailer. Now they are almost 1500 dollars. You cannot convince me that manufacturing costs have practically doubled in the past 2 years.

 

[Securb]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

You cannot convince me that manufacturing costs have practically doubled in the past 2 years.

Demand also drives prices.

 

[dominus]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

+ music doesn't care if its made on a 80 EUR 7/8 children's toy, or a 6K EUR Les Paul. I mean for the average player, at 6K, the instrument plays you and not vice versa. You would be more careful avoiding dents and scratches and spending more time polishing it rather than playing it. It happens with my 2-yrs old Ibanez single cut ARZ800. I bought it 700 EUR, made in China, still i am careful not ruining anything. I wouldn't want to think what would happen if i bought a brand new Les Paul of the same class (e.g. Traditional).

I've recently been snagging some cheap ($50-ish) Peavey Rockmaster guitars, they're 7/8 bodies but take a 25.5" scale neck and Squier Strat necks mate up perfectly. I get a single humbucker hardtail body for very little money, I don't care if I ding it up, and with a good setup and electronics they sound awesome.

I also just picked up a real cheap bolt on 5 string bass to replace the neck through one I have. The neck through one is really nice, but it's more than I need and I can sell it for 6 times what I paid for the bolt on.

 

[dominus]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

What would be cool for those of us who do not rake in 6 figure incomes is if Gibson would sell finished bodies with pleked frets and a pre cut nut WITHOUT all the assembly work done. I wouldn't mind a bit to receive a body and a box-o-parts and do the assembly/setup/wiring myself. I don't even want their pickups. If that would shave off about 1000 dollars from the now increasing price of an ES335, I'd go for it.

Imagine if a company like Warmoth did that.. oh wait. They used to, then had to stop.

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Damn Rodney, why are you injecting logic into (what was) a perfectly good Gibson bashing thread?

Quick, someone start a "tube vs modeling" thread.

LOL!! Sorry~

Unfortunately the need to be offended over trivial nonsense and personal choices has become a rampant disease on this forum in regards to some topics with some folks. God forbid you talk about higher-end, well made, expensive and/or boutique gear in the presence of some company, LOL. You risk a whipping by way of whining and disgust. I wish I could cut it out like a tumor. It's like watching the neighborhood you love being taken over by fast food franchises and dollar general stores in the name of 'value' and convenience.

I don't have a theoretical problem with Gibson charging a ****-ton of money for their guitars, or with them moving toward being a high-end guitar company. I just think that if something is that expensive, it should be exceptionally well made. In that sort of price range, Gibsons are not exceptionally well made, by any relative standards one could dream up.

Sure my good brother, inherent consistent value vs. cost. And I agree. But its always been clear. For me...it is irrelevant at the end of the decision because the argument could apply to every brand or even human being in some way.

Like 1000's of threads before if anyone has been in the game long enough, and has been paying attention, at some point we buy guitars, not brands. Sometimes those guitars are a certain brand, but if you buy a brand and not a guitar then you must be prepared to pay the brands asking price. Some do, some don't. Sometimes we like the look, feel or vibe of a brand so we search within that brand for the guitar. Being offended and shouting foul play that the brand charges too much for the guitar we want is like complaining the color red is too red. If you are buying a guitar and not the brand then the price is irrelevant because you have determined said guitar is worth buying (based on whatever criteria you use). If not, you don't buy it. For some folks walking away from the guitar they really wanted leaves them wanting and therefore victimized. Some save and get what they want. For some others they justify and move on to the cheaper alternatives and then use that justification to reduce/diminish the value of the guitar they wanted but couldn't afford or wouldn't buy. Its a type of self preservation by means of lowering personal standards or desire. The rest simply don't care and those types are rarely found on bashing threads. There is no need because they are not offended.

Its all good. This is the proverbial worm farm thread and I am 100% out...LOL!

I need to practice for a gig!

Wishing you an awesome Sunday!'

Cheers,

RG

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Demand also drives prices.

And manufacturing isn't the only thing guitar companies spend money on.

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

For some folks walking away from the guitar they really wanted leaves them wanting and therefore victimized. Some save and get what they want. For some others they justify and move on to the cheaper alternatives and then use that justification to reduce/diminish the value of the guitar they wanted but couldn't afford or wouldn't buy. Its a type of self preservation by means of lowering personal standards or desire.

This after-the-fact justification works both ways:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

In cognitive science, choice-supportive bias is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected. It is a cognitive bias. For example, if a person buys a computer from Apple instead of a computer (PC) running Windows, he is likely to ignore or downplay the faults of Apple computers while amplifying those of Windows computers.

This is like the inverse of buyer's remorse; rather than feel bad about your decision, you assure yourself it was a good decision. I think the path people decide to take is dependent on their overall personality. The fact that someone would both recognize and feel bad about frivolous spending says something positive about their personality.

Personally, I find it hard to believe anyone with at least modest income truly walks away from the guitar they truly want in favor of a cheaper one. Anyone who can save $500 can also save $1500. It's not like the difference between a $25k Honda and a $100k Porsche, or a $250k house versus a $1mil mansion. Even an expensive guitar is still a cheap guitar in the scheme of things. You shouldn't assume too much about people who decide to buy cheaper guitars.

The rest simply don't care and those types are rarely found on bashing threads. There is no need because they are not offended.

So you're not really here then?

Nice avatar, btw.

 

[plasticscouse]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I'm actually a bit worried about this. I'm thinking of getting a 335 for my 30th in March I've had the idea for many years, and we'll be scrimping and saving and probably getting it on finance anyway with a monthly limit.

This'll be my first and only Gibson/ expensive guitar I'll ever get. With this price rise I think we won't even able to afford one even with the above. All mt other guitars are too cheap and have been modded too much to be worth anything towards the price. So if they really do this to the line Id probably have to abandon the idea.

I am one of those who think of a Gibson as being a "dream" guitar at any price even with the QC experiences people have mentioned as anything above £500 is classed in my eyes as expensive.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I'm actually a bit worried about this. I'm thinking of getting a 335 for my 30th in March I've had the idea for many years, and we'll be scrimping and saving and probably getting it on finance anyway with a monthly limit.

This'll be my first and only Gibson/ expensive guitar I'll ever get. With this price rise I think we won't even able to afford one even with the above. All mt other guitars are too cheap and have been modded too much to be worth anything towards the price. So if they really do this to the line Id probably have to abandon the idea.

I am one of those who think of a Gibson as being a "dream" guitar at any price even with the QC experiences people have mentioned as anything above £500 is classed in my eyes as expensive.

Go used young man... go used

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I've never understood how/why the Epi Dot is so much cheaper than the ES-335, $2500 difference, give or take, relative to the difference between an Epi and Gibson Les Paul, only differing by about $1000.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I've never understood how/why the Epi Dot is so much cheaper than the ES-335, $2500 difference, give or take, relative to the difference between an Epi and Gibson Les Paul, only differing by about $1000.

The finish alone is a big difference in price... much harder to do lacquer than poly

 

[Kosh Naranek]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Thoughts?

http://reverb.com/blog/gibson-to-increase-prices-update-models-for-2015

Fine with me. Gibson's under $1000 models may have been partly the reason that smaller USA guitar makers like Hamer and Robin closed their doors.

If Gibson is "leveraging its core strengths" by focusing more exclusively on guitars that appeal to collectors of high end USA guitars who have the kind of disposable income to buy guitars costing $4k and up, rather than trying to make a guitar for every budget, including basement and bedroom musicians or weekend gigging guitarists who like a player guitar with a satin finish, that's great. It will leave a market niche open for other great USA guitar makers. Maybe we'll see new guitar companies start up, building models specifically for the needs and budgets of working guitarists.
Maybe one or two of the USA guitar makers who have closed shop will consider getting back in the game and filling the void Gibson is leaving.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

The finish alone is a big difference in price... much harder to do lacquer than poly

I've always figured those semi-hollow and hollow-body designs are expensive to produce -- at least the way they might be done in the U.S. Smaller numbers, perhaps not the most efficient manufacturing techniques, and possible artificially inflated prices to give the caché a little boost. All just speculation, theories, rumors, and vicious lies on my part, mind you.

 

[jtees4]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

It all comes down to who the primary buyer of Gibson guitars, specifically Les Pauls, is. If we know who they have to please in order to turn the biggest profit, then it would all make sense, as I doubt the heads at Gibson roll a dice or consult a wigi board when they make seemingly inexplicable decisions.

The only reason I can think of to raise prices would be if they determined that the price point was itself a feature. If the PRS is a "$2000 guitar", then we have to make the Gibson a "$3000 guitar", that sort of thing. Judging from Gibson's strategy in recent years, there's no question that it makes them more money as a status symbol than as a premium guitar. A lot of people here treat the Les Paul as if it's any other premium guitar, but it has far more cachet than other premium guitars. A lot of the comparisons to PRS or other premiums are invalid for that reason.

I agree! I have been buying and selling guitars for a bunch of years as a side business. In terms of price AND ease of selling....Gibson still wins. Fender used to be up there also, until recently (not sure why). Don't work with Carvin, Brian Moore, so many others which are all great guitars. The fact is, the brand DOES matter to buyers. And I'm only speaking as a seller, not the quality of the product. Personally I own two Gibsons and they are great BUT I didn't buy them new....and I personally would not pay their new prices, except maybe on a close out special price which I have done in the past.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

And manufacturing isn't the only thing guitar companies spend money on.

No, there's stockholders.

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Fender used to be up there also, until recently (not sure why).

I'm guessing it's because there's barely any distinction between their MIA and MIM guitars anymore, and products like the Squier Classic Vibe almost seem designed to move away from low volume premium to high volume budget, as well as offering the Fender Mustang amp line and making the case to customers that a $300 modeler might sound as good as their $1000+ tube offerings. I love it. You'd know better than I would if the rate of premium Fender sales has decayed in tandem with the increase in lower end MIM sales.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

The ES 335 price will probably remain one of the great unanswerable mysteries of life. Ok its made in the custom shop arm, but lamination aside there's no reason for it to be so expensive by comparison to a lot of other guitars.

Oh well, I'm lefty anyhow so its not like there are a heap around to seriously consider buying.

 

[chadd]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

The ES 335 price will probably remain one of the great unanswerable mysteries of life. Ok its made in the custom shop arm, but lamination aside there's no reason for it to be so expensive by comparison to a lot of other guitars.

Oh well, I'm lefty anyhow so its not like there are a heap around to seriously consider buying.

I had been thinking of a 335 type guitar for a while but I had been leaning towards a Heritage 535. This increase is probably the last nudge that I needed in that direction. There's lots of stuff that I would like to have but realistically, I can't play all the guitars I have now often enough to justify owning them. Adding a bunch more wouldn't make that situation any better.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

They will always charge the price that they think will result in the most profit when the dust settles. The only difference is that they seem to have shifted their thinking.

For instance (to make the math easy), if they doubled prices across the board, but only lost 40 percent of the total number of guitars sold, they're still coming out on top. I think that basic idea is what they are going for, while they may have still been going after lower end portions of the market till now, thinking not only that it was profitable, but also good for building the brand's appeal. But they are probably getting creamed and losing their asses on the lower-end stuff, because the Chinese, Korean, and Indonesian factories can turn out better guitars than Gibson's lower end stuff, and for less money. Might as well pull out and use Epiphone to compete there, while moving Gibson toward an elitist image.

They are also banking on the idea that if they charge more, they will come to be thought of as a high-end company. (The old "charging a lot of money makes people think that you're good" tactic.)

They can do all of this, and probably increase profits dramatically without changing quality one bit, as it really isn't about the product to most buyers, but about the brand name. And since production numbers are going to be lower, they can also reduce the number of employees, and maybe even the amount of property and tools they need. This is a potentially good business idea from their end, if perhaps a sort of desperate, or at least forced, one.

I am just hoping that they at least have some sense of pride in craftsmanship, and also use this change in thinking to meaningfully improve the quality of their employees and their work. I hope for that, but I am not holding my breath. I do think that quality will improve somewhat, in order to allow them to make claims of quality that will let customers justify spending so much. But I don't think quality will improve in a game changing way, like it truly did back in the '80's when Henry J. first took over. It just wouldn't be necessary to increase profit, so why do it? They will only build guitars to such a quality as is necessary to sell them – no better than that.

 

[Securb]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

If you feel they are too expensive don't buy them. It is pretty simple.