Music Theory Questions

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept for Tonal Organization is a cornerstone of modern composition and arrangement and is definitely an 'advanced' endeavour. Personally, I am in favour of the newer concepts of Negative Harmony (which has several other names depending on what method you are following) and to a lesser extent Pitch Axis (the modern compositional method, not Joe Satriani's so-called Pitch Axis), which equally weight the resolution of the harmony as opposed to the Lydian which leans very heavily on the side of bright/ascending harmonization.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I see no correlation between success and knowledge. Especially in past musicians (many of those icons just had big ears and played all damn day). But today it is different. There are so many people playing, and so many gigs, and the people looking for the gig you want are halfway around the world. You are no longer competing with the guy/girl 2 blocks down for that gig. You are essentially competing with the whole world (this is the same as for any job). I think the more skills you have gives you a better chance of success.
But I still maintain that if you just like to rock out and have fun, then just do it. I realize to most guitarists, it is just a hobby and escape, and not a job. Learn what you like and discard the rest, live a happy life.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I see no correlation between success and knowledge. Especially in past musicians (many of those icons just had big ears and played all damn day). But today it is different. There are so many people playing, and so many gigs, and the people looking for the gig you want are halfway around the world. You are no longer competing with the guy/girl 2 blocks down for that gig. You are essentially competing with the whole world (this is the same as for any job). I think the more skills you have gives you a better chance of success.
But I still maintain that if you just like to rock out and have fun, then just do it. I realize to most guitarists, it is just a hobby and escape, and not a job. Learn what you like and discard the rest, live a happy life.

You basically nailed it. Since jazz has been used as a reference point here I'll use it. In the area I work in, if somebody is looking for a guitar player to sit in on a jazz gig there's a ton of options; they don't have to call me (and I'll be the first to tell you that for jazz I'm probably not the first guy on anybody's call list). They don't want an idiomatic artist for a job like this; they want a chameleon that can work around any chord progression in any style on demand. It's a whole different ballgame. It's like the guy upthread who used John Mellencamp as a point of reference. It doesn't even make sense because John Mellencamp gets to play his own music... I don't. If I'm going to keep getting paid I need to be able to sit down in damn near any situation and bring whatever is required. Most musicians don't get to be artists. You can maximize your your flexibility... which in part means soaking up every drop of theory you can get... or you can go get a real job.

 

[BluesGuyJ2]

Re: Music Theory Questions

to the post above mine, your post makes me think of how your goals, and obviously this sounds like your profession, can help guide how much music theory and ear training to go into.... Even for someone who plays at home and doesn't play out, I suggest they learn some theory because it can still help you grow and understand more of what it is you are doing, or your favorite artists are doing..... for anyone looking to take music to a part time or full time professional level, learning the basics is very important., in my opinion. There have been countless musicians who have been very financially successful who don't know a bit of theory, but the majority seem to be stuck in that one kind of thing they have developed an ear for....

Try tuning your guitar to 4ths, B to C and E to F, and push yourself to break free of patterns and muscle memory and dig back into theory and harmony to relearn the guitar.

 

[Securb]

Re: Music Theory Questions

to the post above mine, your post makes me think of how your goals, and obviously this sounds like your profession, can help guide how much music theory and ear training to go into.... Even for someone who plays at home and doesn't play out, I suggest they learn some theory because it can still help you grow and understand more of what it is you are doing, or your favorite artists are doing..... for anyone looking to take music to a part time or full time professional level, learning the basics is very important., in my opinion. There have been countless musicians who have been very financially successful who don't know a bit of theory, but the majority seem to be stuck in that one kind of thing they have developed an ear for....

I totally agree with every word you said. I think music theory is an incredibly important tool for a musician. I am against the argument a musician can not survive, flourish or sound competent without it. So many players have already proven they can. Many mentioned in this thread.

This is a blanket response to a number of the above comments... I think a lot of you don't really grasp what a thorough internalization of theory really means[/I]?

I also take offence to someone telling a forum full of musicians of varying levels of knowledge we don't understand the tenants of music theory. Especially when that person has no idea of our backgrounds or current gigs. It is not cool to stroll in here and assume we are a bunch of mindless noobs because we do not agree with your view.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I totally agree with every word you said. I think music theroy is an incrediblly important tool for a musician. I am against the argument a musician can not survive, flourish or sound competent without it. So many players have already proven they can. Many mentioned in this thread.

And I'm not entirely disagreeing with you... but I am suggesting that you WILL NOT survive in the world of the 21st century working stiff musician without it. Less than 1% get to be stars... the rest of us are the working stiffs, and keeping yourself busy is doing nothing but getting more difficult. Sill beats the hell out of getting a day job.

 

[Securb]

Re: Music Theory Questions

And I'm not entirely disagreeing with you... but I am suggesting that you WILL NOT survive in the world of the 21st century working stiff musician without it. .

And I am telling people do every day.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Music Theory Questions

And I am telling people do every day.

Who?

 

[Securb]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Who?

Lets just say for the sake of argument I have been aroung a lot more Jazz musicians than most people have. I know personally plenty of talented "working" Jazz musicians that are musically illiterate.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Lets just say for the sake of argument I have been aroung a lot more Jazz musicians than most people have. I know personally plenty of talented "working" Jazz musicians that are musically illiterate.

That's the opposite of my experience... most jazz guitar players I know have an absolutely encyclopedic knowledge of harmony, and an ability to apply it in realtime that is humbling even for me and I am no slouch.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Music Theory Questions

And I am telling people do every day.

When I was in college, I paid my bills off gigs. Across those years I never once thought about any theory I learned in school for a millisecond. It was just a mad scramble. You almost never got real charts to work off of. I'd get called in to fill in with a band and have to put together a 2-3 hour setlist by ear with only a couple nights notice. They'd give me a tape, or at their worst say, "Here's the list, just listen to the radio." I played pop, rock, country, oldies, classical, folk, heavy metal, alternative/indie, you name it (though not jazz, sorry.)

From all that I ended up well-regarded by both local bands and local audiences at the time - I would keep getting called in to work because I was the guy that always could pull it off, always, and the quality and playing were there. Audiences never guessed I was filling in. I always fit in. FWIW - I'm convinced I was successful because I only used my ears. I didn't stand next to the other musicians and use theory to get through it. I made music with the other musicians.

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Music Theory Questions

knowing theory isn't important for the guy who just wants to play along to their favorite songs in their bedroom.

I disagree. Knowing theory is VERY helpful for jamming at home. If you know how the chords relate to one another, it makes it much easier to transcribe solos, to understand why those lick work over those chords, and - most importantly - to know which notes work best so you can make up your own leads.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I disagree. Knowing theory is VERY helpful for jamming at home. If you know how the chords relate to one another, it makes it much easier to transcribe solos, to understand why those lick work over those chords, and - most importantly - to know which notes work best so you can make up your own leads.

When I said that I meant specifically the guy who just wants to play along to some Metallica tunes or something. Not make up their own leads, just play along for fun.

 

[cato]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Miles was a sponge for theory, he was constantly striving for next level knowledge. Sometime after Sketches of Spain, he started studying George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization. The book is not a weekend read in any way. After reading Russell's book Miles emerged as the "modern" Miles that went on to write In A Silent Way and *****'s Brew. George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization is some next level stuff that will make your brain hurt reading it. I can turn you on to a copy if you want to check it out.

thanks so much for the offer securb, but after reading your post i looked up the book which is available from his estate at www.georgerussell.com for $125, so i'm going to pick up a copy there. evidently it's the cloth-bound final edition after the umpteenth revisions and expansions he did over 50 years since the '53 first edition. thanks for turning me on to that and the related miles history. i figured i'd post the site here so others would be aware it's available in case they're interested as well. can't wait !

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I think I got my copy through Berklee.

 

[Securb]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I think I got my copy through Berklee.

It is funny I have seen it in the bookstore and library there but never in the classroom. None of my friends that went to the school were familiar with the book, until 10 or so years ago. It must be taught in some class I just don't know which major at Berklee actually studies it. FWIW Berklee has an amazing audio and book library you could spend years not hours in there.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I've never been, but an old friend of mine went to Berklee and he turned me on to some very advanced theory books, so I am guessing Orchestration majors ...

 

[Securb]

Re: Music Theory Questions

I've never been, but an old friend of mine went to Berklee and he turned me on to some very advanced theory books, so I am guessing Orchestration majors ...

I still have my Alumni pass so if you get up here I would be more than happy to tool around the "campus" (there is no campus perse just a bunch of buildings in the same neighborhood) with you. There is also a dynamite Thai resturant across the street from the main building.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Ooo, that sounds very Yes!
Let's try to do that.

 

[cato]

Re: Music Theory Questions

k, simple question here.
in the key of A major you're playing a simple progression of oscillating (ascending/descending) notes/arpeggiated chords/triads, 8th notes, 4/4, the first being F#b (F#,A,C#). for the next, you shift the root and minor third up by a tone each, but what was the fifth in the F#b triad stays put. youre now playing G#,B,C#. do you look at this new triad as relative to the first - a major 2nd, 4th, and 5th of that original F# major scale that the F#b triad was based on - or as a new triad of root/3b/4th - G#,B,C# - of the G# major scale? i'm blocking out inversion possibilities cause i'm thinking i have to look at it relative to the key and or the first triad.
thanks!