Music Theory Questions

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Music Theory Questions

youre now playing G#,B,C#.

Well that could be one of 12 chords, but the most obvious would be C#7 (Db7) ... no third, so could be Major or minor. A very comfortable fit in the key of F#minor/ A Major when viewed as a minor chord.

(Not sure what 'F#b' represents ... I assume it means F#m (F#minor).

 

[cato]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Well that could be one of 12 chords, but the most obvious would be C#7 (Db7) ... no third, so could be Major or minor. A very comfortable fit in the key of F#minor/ A Major when viewed as a minor chord.

(Not sure what 'F#b' represents ... I assume it means F#m (F#minor).

thanks. yeah, F#b/F#m. sorry. using my own shorthand. got it. so the easiest way to look at the chord is as a C#, it's 5th and b7. the C dominant 7th (Db7) of F#. yeah, i was visualizing fretting the G#,B,C# on the 6th fret D string, 4th fret G string, and 2nd fret B string, so i was purposefully thinking of the G# as the root to see it is ok to think of a triad that has a 2nd, 4th and 5th, or a root, b3 and 4th. i wrote out the notation of a 16 phrase progression of these on a staff and all unnecessarily weird inversions in my head. 0
is there ever any utility in thinking of these types of things as atypical formulations incorporating 2nds/4ths/5ths, root/3rds/6ths, etc (as others were) rather than the way you saw them?

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Music Theory Questions

is there ever any utility in thinking of these types of things as atypical formulations incorporating 2nds/4ths/5ths, root/3rds/6ths, etc (as others were) rather than the way you saw them?

Indeed one can look at the secondary triad as extensions, and that leads to the kind of wide knowledge base such as used regularly in jazz. In that area, it's very common to see simple chords 'stacked' to form more complex chords .... for example, one might see a C Major chord with a G Major chord on top of it, but someone else might see that as a C Major 9 chord with the extensions B (third of the G, Major 7th of the C) and D (fifth of the G, 9th of the C). The root note of the G chord is of course the fifth of the C chord.

Both are correct, and you can view such things in whatever way works best for you. Experience with these things will bring faster recognition, and it's a kind of 'shorthand' knowing things like a B minor pentatonic can be used over C Major 7 to provide the extensions Major 7, 9th, #11 and 6th (13th).

an insight into why jazz is a lifetime study perhaps.

 

[cato]

Re: Music Theory Questions

Indeed one can look at the secondary triad as extensions, and that leads to the kind of wide knowledge base such as used regularly in jazz......... an insight into why jazz is a lifetime study perhaps.

thanks for sharing your knowledge, crusty. all of the theory i'm reading uses dissection coltrane and parker cycles, miles, maynard furgeson, kenton, and many others, as examples when explaining whatever the topic is, so i guess that's why i'm u intentionally seeing things that way as opposed to more typically/contemporarily. thanks again!

 

[Hurricane]

The More You Know The More You Play

The More You Know The More You Play

:cool2:

Over the years since I started gigging , musicians who can read notation - tabs - understand chord construction - triad and other stuff
are the fastest communicators on stage on the fly when moving from arrangement to arrangement in live open session's for jazz - standards
and other genres where such musicians meet and groove .

Piano men with reeds talking - guitarist talking to singers on stage for a really quick and accurate run down of a song in a quick concise
language and - Bang you have a tight arrangemt(s) composing it/themselves and evolving into improv genius by the players in minutes .

Whether spoken in english or spanish these musicians I met over these years since " 77 " showed me that you just can't learn to much of
that stuff .

62 years of music being my life of 66 years . I started by ear with a Marine Band Blues harp and Louis Armstrong's music off the radio .
In elementary school @ 8 it was the school marching band . When HS hit I ditched the marching band to bang heads in FB and twist people
up as a wrestler

[ I did this very well too ] :scared:

I never did stop playing music and when collage ended in 72 I started playing again with people and that's when I really started to understand
theory by having to teach a talented guitar player who could not read the notation of jazz , standards & the classics .

With a keyboard by sounding the chord's " feel " to him he learned fast and I in turn improved more on my theory , up to then I wasn't a keyboard
player but I can now since then in 1995 .

:banana:" 98 " : My guitar miracle goes down and I am seriously at it trying to re learn guitar after 36 years of not being able to play because of the
pain from milk bottle glass in my finger tips for those 36 years that stopped me after 6 years of noodling on a steel string guitar . The theory I learned
back then as a kid re enforced me as a musician while I was showing/teaching that guitar player those standards & jazz came in super handy when I began
my guitar journey once again .

@ 48 I had a lot of catching up to do in 98 when the last glass exited my left ring finger - I do not think I would be as proficient with RNR , Blues
Jazz & Standards at all if it were not for those basic fundamentals I learn when I was 8 years old learning trumpet in that marching band and then teaching
that guitarist how to play standards & stuff .

I'm loving my music more than ever , I love playing with any serious musician whether they read or not , what is important to me is to keep playing that's all .

I hope everyone can dig on their music to the max what ever they play . I hope you all play as much as you want to and make the world sound better in the process .

EZ :

HR

 

[cato]

Music Theory Questions

wow hurricane, thanks so much for sharing your history. it's fascinating. i've been jazz drumming since i was a kid. a few years after i started, i picked up the guitar, than violin, and bass. a little piano. guitar i gravitate towards most. i never played anything but drums in a band. still do. guitar and the other things were just my personal joy. and i became that guy who'd meticulously learn stuff note for note, and understood little he was doing. i've now been studying theory for a few months and the insane complexity of it makes me hit myself with a boot thinking of what i'd know now if i started learning this from the beginning. but it's always been just for fun. i always said regarding my guitar playing: 'i play guitar, i'm not a musician'. i am envious of you guys who are musicians. i read very advanced stuff on improv and what the expert jazz musicians do on the fly just sitting in with a couple of other players, and i understand it, but i can't for the life of me grasp doing that without thinking. not even after a lifetime of study. it's a gift. not everyone can do it. but i'll try anyways, in my little world right now, it is a euphoric feeling to read theory and instantly recognize/realize i've been playing this stuff for years but never knew it was 'something'. so my questions are fundamental often. i have jazz musician friends and a professor of music friend, and i play their guitars whenever i see them and pick their brains, and they always say 'how can you possibly play like that and still ask such mind numbingly fundamental questions?' i do what i do, i say. i appreciate everyone here sharing lifetimes of knowledge.
yes sir, i do very much dig whatever it is i do; it brings me much joy and escape, amidst the difficulties and pain of life that we all have known, or soon will know.
thanks.

 

[cato]

Music Theory Questions

so a question. say you play an Eb diminished 7th arpeggio starting on the 11th fret on the low E. play the common shape up to the 3rd octave of the b3 on the high E, come back down, stop on the low 4th, up to the bb7 (6) to the Eb octave on the D string 13th fret, and then finish on the b7.
to my ears the minor 3rd intervals coming back down to a 4th instead of the b5, then to the bb7, then the Eb octave creates this pleasant tension that resolves nicely on the b7.
what is this ending pattern as it departs from the diminished 7th triad?
it's got a mix of a few things, but not entirely one thing. it's got the b7 of a half diminished triad; it's got a sus4 diminished and half diminished 7th quality due to the b7 and bb7, but the b3 is still in there, so that's not it; it's got an add11 diminished and half diminished quality because it touches the bb7 and resolves on the b7, respectively, but the omitted b5 complicates that.
is there a particular identifiable thing going on here, or is the 4th/11th just a passing note used to setup resolution on the b7, and i'm just being too ridged looking for a theoretical term for this ending/resolving arpeggio phrase.
thanks. im sure someone could've worded this better/more concisely, so bare with me.
thanks!