Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

[Larioso]

Looked closely into a bunch of Musicman and Ibanez with DiMarzio pups installed.

Musicman range from $3000-$4000 almost all of them.
Ibanez range from $1000-$2000 most of them, with a couple at $3000.

Musicman has gone overboard with Majesty series, even if neck through.
But even exceeding Gibsons non signature stuff - seems heavy.

Japaneze guitars has really high quality, even Les Paul from Tokai and Greco are considered even better than Gibsons.
All Fender MIJ are really good.

Are Musicman just going with a policy with pricing`not much to do with quality?
I was keen on a Silhouette HSH but not available in sunburst anymore, just all white or all goth black, kind of.
But $2500 - just makes you want to check out competition.

It's a bolt on neck guitar with nothing fancy on body - like complicated mixed top like a Les Paul.
Gibson SG standard are around $1500 to compare a bit, and set neck, not bolted.

Ibanez that match seems to be around $1500.

What is reason for MusicMan pricetags?
Just going for niche market, or?

Thanks.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Music Man guitars are expensive because

* they can get away with that
* the market accepts that price point for those guitars.

Also, there are a few points in/on/of Music Man guitars which make them so costly but you don't 'see' instantly. Take a look at, for example, how insanely good their finishes are. They're absolute mirrors. It's not just a matter of buffing, buffing is the easiest step in that process. It's everything leading up to the buffing. Their blacks are super-super deep and black. Yeah, duh, they're black so of course it's black, you might say. But no. Black is difficult. Every spec of dust is super visible and the base coat itself can have a green, blue or brown tinge to it. Black is hard: the color as wel as getting it buffed to perfection.

Also, Music Man's necks are INSANE. They are so, so well made. I don't like their necks because they are way too thin for my taste but I do recognize their necks. The way the edges are rolled, the way the inlay is installed, the way the frets are installed and pressed, leveled, buffed, polished, crowned and edged/beveled. That's insanely good. And not just on one guitar but on ALL of their guitars. That means they have trained their assembly staff, each and every single one of them, to get the fretjob done perfectly time and time again, year after year.

Also, their woods are amazing as well. Fret sprout is almost non-existent.

And something I find amazing is body radii. Huh, what? Yeah, the round-over of the body. If you look at it, you'll see it; they are very consistent. Sounds like nothing but please believe me, it is a lot of work to get that done perfectly and consistently.

Compare that with Ibanez. They have virtually no USA production; asian labor is cheaper. Also, Ibanez guitars that are not Team J-Craft aren't nearly as neatly built as Musicman's. They're good guitars and will play fine, no problems there. But they're not as neatly built.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

by the way, you're pricing is off by at least 1000 dollars. Only the BFR's, say their customshop, is 3000 plus. The regular cutlesses etc are around 2.2K.

 

[dave74]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Go for that new 2020 cosmic shadow prestige! $1999 w/case ( I can't but wish I could)

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/rg5320_00_01.html

 

[VinceT]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

It’s not a scam at all, it’s market pricing.

Music Man guitars are the real deal - I own a Reflex, and it’s an amazing guitar. The better comparison is to Fender, G&L, etc. because they’re all of the same lineage.

I may disagree with some of their model choices - does anyone need that many Petrucci models? Not making the Reflex any more! - that doesn’t alter the fact that they’re among the highest quality at their price-point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[VinceT]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

MAP on Silhouette HSH looks like $2300, so a deal would get you closer to $2K. Pro-tip, look at used Music Man guitars on Reverb, see if you can’t find a screaming bargain.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Larioso]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Go for that new 2020 cosmic shadow prestige! $1999 w/case ( I can't but wish I could)

https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/rg5320_00_01.html

Fine guitar.

Having a couple of Dan Erlewine's books on guitars he mention that Ibanez factory specs are like 0.8mm action, which is like half what you can squeeze from a Gibson setup. That impressed me a bit and made me curious forgetting about it almost.

I struggled with a brand new LP standard for three days as delivered to get it acceptable, it really needed a fretjob as delivered. So something went wrong with Gibson somewhere.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Dude, that's nonsense about Ibanez. Total hogwash. Try and look up the real specs. Here's an Ibanez spec sheet:

http://www.hoshinogakki.co.jp/pdf/ibanez/manual/en/eg/Ibanez_EG_05_Excl_Prestige.pdf

0.3-0.5mm neck relief (HOLY **** that's curved: I build and set up my necks to have a 0.1mm neck relief but OK) and a 1.5mm to 2mm action.

About Gibson: They PLEK their necks. They don't need to be leveled again. If you can't set up a 2019/2020 Gibson really low without buzzing, you're doing it wrong

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

I took a dive into the hornet's nest that's Ibanez' factories. Interestingly enough, a large portion of their non-Japanese guitars are made by Cort and other factories like Cort. Cort's standard setups (factory cort, not just the brand) are perfectly in line with that spec sheet right there.

 

[Larioso]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Music Man guitars are expensive because

* they can get away with that
* the market accepts that price point for those guitars.

Also, there are a few points in/on/of Music Man guitars which make them so costly but you don't 'see' instantly. Take a look at, for example, how insanely good their finishes are. They're absolute mirrors. It's not just a matter of buffing, buffing is the easiest step in that process. It's everything leading up to the buffing. Their blacks are super-super deep and black. Yeah, duh, they're black so of course it's black, you might say. But no. Black is difficult. Every spec of dust is super visible and the base coat itself can have a green, blue or brown tinge to it. Black is hard: the color as wel as getting it buffed to perfection.

Also, Music Man's necks are INSANE. They are so, so well made. I don't like their necks because they are way too thin for my taste but I do recognize their necks. The way the edges are rolled, the way the inlay is installed, the way the frets are installed and pressed, leveled, buffed, polished, crowned and edged/beveled. That's insanely good. And not just on one guitar but on ALL of their guitars. That means they have trained their assembly staff, each and every single one of them, to get the fretjob done perfectly time and time again, year after year.

Also, their woods are amazing as well. Fret sprout is almost non-existent.

And something I find amazing is body radii. Huh, what? Yeah, the round-over of the body. If you look at it, you'll see it; they are very consistent. Sounds like nothing but please believe me, it is a lot of work to get that done perfectly and consistently.

Compare that with Ibanez. They have virtually no USA production; asian labor is cheaper. Also, Ibanez guitars that are not Team J-Craft aren't nearly as neatly built as Musicman's. They're good guitars and will play fine, no problems there. But they're not as neatly built.

Hope that answers your questions.

Thanks for insights.

Hi gloss is more expensive - so many more layers to do with intermediate work too. But some manufacturers offer models where you can pick which level you feel fits your wallet.
Have Martin D-16GT - GT means gloss top, meaning not the full body is gloss - much, much cheaper than regular D-16.
Gibson has satin versions, even faded and worn versions - not only finish difference, but still.
So it's possible to offer alternatives also.

Not all fond of the thinnest necks either, rather that it fills the hand. But not all turnoff. Have shawbucker Tele that has this deep C neck, and I love it how it feel in the hand. Wish I went for 59 neck on LP as well, not the 60's.

US labour etc goes for Gibson and American Fender as well. But MusicMan offer Sterling as Gibson offer Epiphone and Fender Squier - so I guess that are options. But appreciate the middle range up to $2500 or so. And I probably remember just certain series from MusicMan that I felt I liked enough in the range I wrote about.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Ibanez Premiums (Indonesian made) are priced higher than the real deal Prestige, but I don't see you complainin'.

You want value, get a Yamaha Pacifica; or Tokai AST (Chinese), I haven't tried one but it seems to be on par with MIM Strats with half the price.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

I understand what your point is, but if Musicman doesn't want to drop below a certain quality level, that's a perfectly valid business choice. As I said, buffing (making it glossy) is just the last step. All the work before that is where the bulk of the work lies.

Musicman simply feel like it's either their way or the highway. They have offered (and I believe still do) a satin finish but nothing beyond that. You have to understand, MusicMan is fairly small. Opening up a completely new factory line featuring open pore satin finish is a MAJOR investment and should not be regarded lightly. The logistics in that is extremely complicated.

How I know? Because that is my job with a medium large guitar factory in the Netherlands.

 

[nexion218]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

About Gibson: They PLEK their necks. They don't need to be leveled again. If you can't set up a 2019/2020 Gibson really low without buzzing, you're doing it wrong

That Gibson stuff is really interesting...I saw a video on I believe Rhett Shull's channel, where he took a brand new Gibson to an independent guitar shop to check out the fretwork/neck. The result? Frets were okayish and the nut slots were left on the safe side: they were left high (I believe to the point where it affected the playability). Weird, I'd expect them to be perfect. Also - and it goes without saying that I'm not saying this to question your experise - but a PLEK is only as good as the man operating it. The machine does what it's programmed to do.

Also, a bit more on topic. I recall reading somewhere that MM says that the reason why they do not have a custom shop is because they already work at custom shop quality, so no reason to go beyond that. And although their instrument do not appeal to may taste, I keep hearing from everyone that they really do back their words up on that. If you take that into account, they are not that expensive compared to, say, 6-7 Jackson production models... I mean, sure a boatload of money, but I think I start to understand how it would harm a company to put a cheapo pricetag on themselves.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

That Gibson stuff is really interesting...I saw a video on I believe Rhett Shull's channel, where he took a brand new Gibson to an independent guitar shop to check out the fretwork/neck. The result? Frets were okayish and the nut slots were left on the safe side: they were left high (I believe to the point where it affected the playability). Weird, I'd expect them to be perfect. Also - and it goes without saying that I'm not saying this to question your experise - but a PLEK is only as good as the man operating it. The machine does what it's programmed to do.

Also, a bit more on topic. I recall reading somewhere that MM says that the reason why they do not have a custom shop is because they already work at custom shop quality, so no reason to go beyond that. And although their instrument do not appeal to may taste, I keep hearing from everyone that they really do back their words up on that. If you take that into account, they are not that expensive compared to, say, 6-7 Jackson production models... I mean, sure a boatload of money, but I think I start to understand how it would harm a company to put a cheapo pricetag on themselves.

You watched an entire Rhett Shull video? You are a man with much more stamina than I am

About the PLEK: there's not much set up or operator error that can be done because the firm in Germany set up the base line because its their product and their name/reputation is on the line. To be frank, I don't for one second believe that PLEK is absolutely necessary but it will be a lot easier to get the frets level. Because thatś what the machine does perfectly.

Also, just because Rhett saw errors doesn't mean the machine is faulty: frets tend to rise out of wood. Gibson doesn't glue their frets if I recall correctly, and that is imho likely the cause of a LOT of issues. I glue my frets and that saves me a lot in headache. It's just one more variable I narrow down when doing fretboard work

About that last part: I 100% agree with that part. The BFR is not perse a customshop but a part of the shop where they do stuff that doesn't fall in the line up. But they don't play or sound or look 'better' than the others, by any stretch.

 

[Larioso]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Dude, that's nonsense about Ibanez. Total hogwash. Try and look up the real specs. Here's an Ibanez spec sheet:

http://www.hoshinogakki.co.jp/pdf/ibanez/manual/en/eg/Ibanez_EG_05_Excl_Prestige.pdf

0.3-0.5mm neck relief (HOLY **** that's curved: I build and set up my necks to have a 0.1mm neck relief but OK) and a 1.5mm to 2mm action.

About Gibson: They PLEK their necks. They don't need to be leveled again. If you can't set up a 2019/2020 Gibson really low without buzzing, you're doing it wrong

My LP is 2007, and still $2000+ at the time, so you would expect more.

Ibanez - Erlewine wrote that they look for 2.0/1.6mm at 0.25mm relief - but what actually came out from factory were shipped absolutely straight neck with no fret buzz, and he measured 1.2/0.8mm action.

"How to make you electric guitar play great" @2001. He did not mention model.

I could not breath on my LP, even less play it without fret buzz. So even quality of necks, how well truss rod is put in place etc.
No wonder they need to do PLEK on guitars the way they do the ground job.

I had a 335 plain top, loosening tuners to swap to schaller, the Grover wobbled 0.6mm in the hole. The whole was 10.4mm diameter and Grover need 9.8mm in base - that is how sloppy Gibson has gone. I got rid on that guitar. It got really nice with sheet copper around each tuner to make it press fit, so that worked well.

I did total fret job on the LP and now swapped tuners to schaller from Kluson incredible nice boost of tone. Nicely tapered by me with great care and making tuners really be full part of headstock. The pickups to DiMarzio , 36th anniversary PAF and SuperDistortion - so now really happy with it. So now it's a keeper at last, having had it for 13 years total. But not getting anything Gibson again.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

My LP is 2007, and still $2000+ at the time, so you would expect more.

Ibanez - Erlewine wrote that they look for 2.0/1.6mm at 0.25mm relief - but what actually came out from factory were shipped absolutely straight neck with no fret buzz, and he measured 1.2/0.8mm action.

"How to make you electric guitar play great" @2001. He did not mention model.

I could not breath on my LP, even less play it without fret buzz. So even quality of necks, how well truss rod is put in place etc.
No wonder they need to do PLEK on guitars the way they do the ground job.

I had a 335 plain top, loosening tuners to swap to schaller, the Grover wobbled 0.6mm in the hole. The whole was 10.4mm diameter and Grover need 9.8mm in base - that is how sloppy Gibson has gone. I got rid on that guitar. It got really nice with sheet copper around each tuner to make it press fit, so that worked well.

I did total fret job on the LP and now swapped tuners to schaller from Kluson incredible nice boost of tone. Nicely tapered by me with great care and making tuners really be full part of headstock. The pickups to DiMarzio , 36th anniversary PAF and SuperDistortion - so now really happy with it. So now it's a keeper at last, having had it for 13 years total. But not getting anything Gibson again.

I would have to see the proof of that statement by Erlewine. I don't say he's lying; I just would like to see it for myself.

Have you, by the way, seen the first guitars Gibson did on a PLEK? It was hilarious. To get the fretwork actually level, the machine milled so much off it milled into the fretboard at some points. Hilarious to see. It's not a video, unfortunately, I saw it first-hand a few years ago. Oddly enough, one of the best LP's I have ever tried was a 2002 Gary Rossington LP Standard Tom Murphy relic. But was it worth 14995 dollars? Absolutely not.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

0.3-0.5mm neck relief (HOLY **** that's curved: I build and set up my necks to have a 0.1mm neck relief but OK) and a 1.5mm to 2mm action.

Is there a benefit to a perfectly straight guitar neck? I've never preferred that myself, and don't typically aim for it when setting up a guitar to play.

How are you measuring relief? 0.1 mm is about the half the thickness of a gnat's fart. I usually aim for about the width of a high e string . . . so 0.011 inches . . . which is what, .03 mm?

 

[nexion218]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

You watched an entire Rhett Shull video? You are a man with much more stamina than I am

Also, just because Rhett saw errors doesn't mean the machine is faulty.

Yeah well I wouldn't say I'm regular on his channel... But I do watch Rick Beato's vids just to remind myself that I know way less about music than what I think I know (and I do not think highly of my knowledge) and since they frequently do vids together I think this one vid was recommended to me by the algorythm.

I didn't mean to say that the machine was faulty, I rather meant that it kinda surprised me to see that there were measurable and playability affecting imperfections, especially the nut. But after receiveng a freebie from Gibson, re-doing the PLEK and fixing the nutslots, Rhett played that thing as happy as a 5 year old under a christmas tree, so I guess that thing turned out to be perfect, it just needed a little attention...

 

[nexion218]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

How are you measuring relief?

Feeler gauge and I use the low E as a straigthedge fratted at the first fret and at the fret where the body meets the neck. That way the 7th or 8th fret if around halfway. I take out the 0.25 and 0.2 feeler and stick it between the string anf the top of the fret (one at a time).

Too much relief would affect at least action and intonation and who knows what else, but I might be off with that. I let the pros handle that question.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Musicman vs Ibanez pricetag - how much of a scam is that?

Nexion: you're absolutely right. Got nothing to add.