Pickup phase switch question

[Inflames626]

This has probably been covered elsewhere on the forums, but I want to make sure I understand things correctly by making the question relevant to what I'm doing.

For this example we'll use a HH guitar with a 3 way toggle switch.

For a pickup phase switch, it's my understanding that:

1) It doesn't matter which pickup you set to be out of phase--the tone is the same.
2) The toggle switch has to be in the middle for the sound to work because the pickups have to interact with each other to be out of phase.

It was my hope that the neck pickup alone could be set out of phase and isolated with the toggle in the neck position. The main reason for this is to thin out a muddy neck pickup, whereas a tone knob might be used to thicken up a bright neck pickup. Ideally this could be done on the same guitar so the neck pickup could always be dialed in to create the desired tone.

Since my bridge pickup tones don't need to be nearly as versatile as the neck, I'm not as concerned about the bridge.

So, is there a way to isolate a neck pickup only out of phase, or can it only be out of phase in the middle toggle position?

If it can't be isolated, the only way I can think of around this is to have independent volume controls for each pickup, turn the bridge pickup all the way down, flick the phase switch, and then only have the neck pickup playing out of phase.

My understanding is independent volume controls get rid of treble as you turn them down, but hopefully with a phase switch on this might be counteracted somewhat.

Thanks as always.

 

[jeremy]

1- correct. it doesnt matter which pup you flip the phase on
2- correct. both pups need to be active in order to get the out of phase sound

flipping the phase of a pup doesnt do anything until you mix that pup with another one. it is the phase relationship between the two that you are changing. mixing the signal from the two out of phase pups is what causes the sound to thin out. with only one pup active, there isnt another signal to mix with and cancel frequencies

if you want to thin out a muddy neck pup and you dont use the treble roll off tone control, you could wire that control as a bass cut control instead

 

[Inflames626]

1- correct. it doesnt matter which pup you flip the phase on
2- correct. both pups need to be active in order to get the out of phase sound

flipping the phase of a pup doesnt do anything until you mix that pup with another one. it is the phase relationship between the two that you are changing.

if you want to thin out a muddy neck pup and you dont use the treble roll off tone control, you could wire that control as a bass cut control instead

jeremy , thanks. I just thought of this, but I'm guessing trying to isolate the neck pickup in an independent volume knob setup also wouldn't work then because you would be silencing the bridge pickup by sending its signal to ground, which would give the out-of-phase neck pickup nothing to interact with?

This is mostly a sound I hear with Strat guitars used for funk. However I have a guitar with two Triple Shots and adding a phase switch seems like a small addition to make the guitar even more versatile.

 

[jeremy]

correct, you need signal from both pups in order to get phase cancellation. by adjusting the volumes of the two pups you can get a bunch of different tones but as soon as you turn one pup all the way off, you just have the normal tone of the active pup.

99% of strats are not wired out of phase. its just the neck/middle or middle/bridge pups wired parallel, in phase. i just wired up a strat and the middle pup is out of phase, the notch tones are awful. ill open it back up and flip the wires to get things back in phase.

with a lp or similar guitar where each pup has its only volume, then out of phase can be cool/useful. with both pups full up the tone can be super thin and honky, but by adjusting the volumes you can get some fun tones. cant do that on a strat or other guitar that only has one volume

 

[Inflames626]

jeremy , thanks as you have saved me a lot of trouble doing this mod for guitars they wouldn't really work well with.

Today's specimen was an LTD Explorer with volume/tone, 2 EMG HZ1s (bright, ceramic I think, about 14k--less middy than their 81s and what I would consider EMG's passive PAF style pickup). I have them both with Triple Shots and I thought, hey maybe I can put the neck pickup out of phase if it's too muddy. If it's too bright I can use a tone knob.

Wiring the phase switch adds some extra time to the job whereas the Triple Shots only need 3 wires each. Going to a regular pot that will be a piece of cake.

I'm a bit disappointed that the guitar won't be as versatile as what I'd like, but I'm relieved I don't have to do a lot of extra work.

 

[Inflames626]

The HZ1s are pretty bright anyway and if anything they would need darkening in the neck via the tone knob more than thinning out by going out of phase.

 

[Inflames626]

Also thanks for the clarification on Strats and phasing, as I have 2-3 of those lined up in the future as well.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Try the neck pickup in parallel; that'll be brighter, though without the characteristic OOP mid character.
The Triple Shot's ability to use just one coil of the neck pickup would thin it out even more.
If splitting to the outside coil isn't enough, using just the inner coil will be a tad brighter still.

Unless EMG humbuckers aren't splittable - that would eliminate all the benefits of having a Triple Shot though.
(My only EMGs are singlecoils in a Strat.)

 

[Inflames626]

Try the neck pickup in parallel; that'll be brighter, though without the characteristic OOP mid character.
The Triple Shot's ability to use just one coil of the neck pickup would thin it out even more.
If splitting to the outside coil isn't enough, using just the inner coil will be a tad brighter still.

Unless EMG humbuckers aren't splittable - that would eliminate all the benefits of having a Triple Shot though.
(My only EMGs are singlecoils in a Strat.)

eclecticsynergy , these are EMG HZ1s that came stock with another used guitar I bought so I decided to use them for a build.

They are regular passive four conductor plus ground pickups--exposed pole pieces in neck and bridge positions on top of EMGs usual black casing.

My thoughts so far is they are really clean and balanced without the usual mid spike of the EMG 81 or HZ4 (passive 81). Like a passive EMG PAF.

They're a little anemic at the moment but I'm sure they'll sound fine in a mix.

I discussed my thoughts on the HZ line in another thread and am continuing to give them a try. I'll keep everyone updated as I go.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

eclecticsynergy , these are EMG HZ1s that came stock with another used guitar I bought so I decided to use them for a build.

They are regular passive four conductor plus ground pickups--exposed pole pieces in neck and bridge positions on top of EMGs usual black casing.

My thoughts so far is they are really clean and balanced without the usual mid spike of the EMG 81 or HZ4 (passive 81). Like a passive EMG PAF.

They're a little anemic at the moment but I'm sure they'll sound fine in a mix.

I discussed my thoughts on the HZ line in another thread and am continuing to give them a try. I'll keep everyone updated as I go.

Cool. Parallel is definitely possible then for a cleaner, slightly brighter neck tone.

I might go with both options, myself - I too like to have a more singlecoily neck tone on tap for once in a while.
And there's no rule that says you cant have a push-pulls or mini toggle for phase too.

As confirmed above, OOP sound only works in middle position, and it only works with both pickups set to the same level.
If one is turned down lower than the other, you lose the phase cancellation and the tone pretty much reverts to normal.
The OOP sound is far less beefy anyway, so most of us just leave both pickups dimed for it I think.

On the early PRS guitars, position 2 on the rotary is OOP but the two hums are in series with each other for extra output.
It's a great tone; Paul named it "power out-of-phase."

 

[Inflames626]

I appreciate all the help.

I thought putting a phase switch on one pickup would have a small effect on that pickup if it is isolated, but that it would take two pickups to get the full on sound.

What makes this tricky is it is a master volume/tone build, as it's just an LTD Explorer. Not a lot of fancy stuff going on in the electronics.

 

[Mincer]

An out-of-phase sound is certainly an acquired taste. I am sure people make a good use out of them, but I haven't ever had one instance where I needed that sound in any live performance or recording I've done.

 

[Inflames626]

Thanks for chiming in as always with useful comments Mincer .

Aren't the Peter Green style pickups from SD especially for this sound? It does make me think of a kind of indie garage White Stripes kind of sound, but for me it's for thinning and brightening cleans as I said.

I see some people in YouTube videos just put in a phase switch while others are actually turning the magnet 180 degrees. I assume the latter is for two conductor pickups only.

I'm definitely a player who likes a lot of wiring options on his guitar but mainly for studio use and not to use them in a performance. I don't even really like tone knobs. I'm all for everything being stored in a preset through an Axe FX and recalled at the touch of a button.

That said, this guy did 42 wiring mods on a guitar and truthfully maybe half or less are useful: https://youtu.be/07w8EADu5Q4

But I like having the options. Since I like Floyds and a lot of different tunings the guitar collection adds up quickly if you don't try to make every guitar as versatile as possible.

Plus all the wiring practice helps. I finally got the KV3 I was working on sorted out (something about the grounds) and I've started protecting the Triple Shot connections with electrical tape to keep them from possibly shifting since I leave the most lead on the pickups I can in case of re-installations.

The Triple Shots aren't as fragile as some people think. There's more room in the pickup cavity than I thought once the pickup is raised to full height, especially on a fixed bridge guitar where I tend to set my pickups very close to the strings.

For Floyd Roses, I pull the bar back until the strings go as sharp as they can. If they touch the bridge pickup, I back the pickup down until the string has just enough clearance.

For neck pickups, I play at the highest fret until the string touches the neck pickup, then I back it down to give the string enough clearance to vibrate.

 

[Mincer]

Yeah, the Greenies are made for this sound, but you can get it with any PAF-style humbuckers wired out of phase. I also suggest the Triple Shots for an elegant solution to many wiring options.

 

[Artie]

. . . while others are actually turning the magnet 180 degrees.

Flipping the mag can accomplish two things. If you wire as normal afterwards, you have a somewhat permanent reverse polarity

If you also reverse the wiring, (bringing the polarity back), then you can split to inside or outside coils, and remain humbucking, and in phase.

A switch would allow you to do either/or and both.

 

[Securb]

An out-of-phase sound is certainly an acquired taste. I am sure people make a good use out of them, but I haven't ever had one instance where I needed that sound in any live performance or recording I've done.

I use the tone all of the time, especially on classic rock stuff.

 

[Inflames626]

Okay, an update on this since I finished the build last night. I may put this in another thread on the EMG HZ1 as well since we're close to off topic but I also found the out of phase sound on this very useful. So, I'll keep this discussion here. It might also help those curious to see how well Triple Shots work with non-SD stuff.

As before stated I put the EMG HZ1s in an LTD EX-200 Explorer with volume and tone knob. The HZ1s were stock from another guitar that I put active pickups into, so I decided to keep the HZ1s and try them in something else. The LTD lost its ESP Designed pickups, which were already set to split via the tone knob.

Each EMG HZ1 pickup got a Triple Shot and these were paired with a 500k linear taper tone knob with .022 uf ceramic disc cap because I have tons of those lying around from other import guitar builds. The neck pickup ended up getting the phase switch with a 500k audio taper Alpha DPDT. The volume knob hole had to be slightly enlarged with a taper reamer to accommodate this.

Most of the guitar's existing wire was gutted and replaced with cloth push back wire, save the jack hot and ground wires.

The HZ1s measured about 14.19k at the bridge and maybe a little less than that at the neck--12-13k. I thought there would be more of a difference. The only way I can differentiate the pickups is the screw placement on the covers. They combine screws with EMG's black plastic cap look. There is no model sticker on the back--just green circuit board. These are older block letter logo EMGs--maybe from 2008 or before.

I was expecting perhaps a Duncan Custom/Custom 5/Gibson 498t/500t kind of sound--mid scooped and thumpy with a bright top end--but the HZ1s don't sound like that at all.

The first thing I thought was--Bartolinis?

The EMGs have a really open, airy sound that was quite bright. Their HZ1A line that uses Alnicos may better match the sound I was expecting. Their HZ2 line has specs that are more vintage in terms of resistance.

The frequency response of the HZ1 was much wider to my ear than the usual EMG 81/HZ4, so for those looking for something different, the HZ1s might be something they will like.

I thought my experience here might be helpful because it paired a Triple Shot with an EMG Quick Connect. Yeah, there wasn't much room, but by putting the Triple Shot connector right behind the Quick Connector I was able to make it all fit. The pole piece screws prevented me from putting the Triple Shot connector above or below the Quick Connector. In order to swap pickups I'd have to remove the Triple Shot connector, then the Quick Connect. But on the bright side that lack of room holds everything in place nicely.

Whenever I do a build, I leave the most lead on as possible in case I want to swap things around later. It can make for crowded and sometimes messy cavities, so I had to come up with a way to keep everything neat and take any physical stress off of the Triple Shot connector if the EMG wires shifted.

I coiled the EMG Quick Connector line around the Triple Shot and then fed it to the Triple Shot connections, keeping everything within the pickup height screws. This caused everything to bulge, so I covered it with electrical tape to keep everything in place. It looks ugly as sin, but it's all within the guitar pickup cavities, so no worries.

After hours of frustration to find I had yet another faulty import toggle switch, I got everything wired up and played the guitar clean through a little Peavey Solo portable vocal amp that probably dates from the 80s. I use this to test all my guitars when doing electronics. Any real tone will be tried through my DAW.

I was super pleasantly surprised. The unholy marriage of Seymour Duncan and EMG worked really well. I find some pickups don't really sound all that different with all the Triple Shot combinations (my Full Shred set comes to mind, but these sound great out of the box in series). But the EMGs were really reactive to however I set them up. Each change of the Triple Shot made a big difference in sound.

The out of phase setting with the Triple Shots on parallel blew me away. The guitar became so clean and thin it was almost like a sitar--a really unusual sound coming from an Explorer. Once again another very versatile guitar for my collection thanks to SD's Triple Shot.

My only complaints are I wish the guitar sounded a bit darker. Since I play metal anyway the bright guitar won't be a problem, but perhaps trying the HZ1 Alnico variant might get me the tone I'm looking for, as well as switching to a .044 uf cap. Caps can get too dark really quickly for me, so I tend to stay with .022 uf.

I found the HZ1s to be really versatile, if a little bland and sterile, and without the mid spike of the 81/HZ4. This versatility might be why they came stock on so many guitars for a while. I certainly liked them better than my Duncan Detonators, but I'm not an Invader fan anyway.

Some will probably find the HZ1 anemic and weak, but for those who get their tone later in the chain, I bet the HZ1 will sit in the mix well and sound just fine. They will need a bit of a boost though if you are used to higher output pickups.

Sorry for the short novel. Hope this helped. Also, when using non-SD stuff with Triple Shots, remember that the wire colors will not match and you will need to plan accordingly. In this case green for SD and green for EMG were a match, but everything else had to be changed with the help of a color code guide that SD kindly provides.

 

[Mincer]

Happy that you found the OOP sound useful. It is certainly very pickup-dependent, and I have to admit that I haven’t tried them with HZ EMGs.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Before going to a higher value tone cap, you might see whether a 250K volume pot would take off enough edge to suit you.
Easy to audition it reversibly by clipping a 470K resistor across the leads of your present 500K.
If you decide you like it, then you can change the pot to keep the taper more natural.

Try it fairly loud, though - sometimes changes that seem subtle at low levels make a pretty significant difference at band volume.

 

[Inflames626]

Thanks eclecticsynergy . I think you know what I'm trying to do--get a ceramic and Alnico sound out of the same neck pickup--with the phase switch and Triple Shot making it sound like a single coil.

Wouldn't rolling the tone knob half way approximate the 250k pot?