Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

[marvelous_seven]

First off,the search function still not satisfy me. I already read Martin Koch's Building Electric Guitars book but still no cigar.
We all know that pickups placed on the spots with strong harmonics,either by played acoustically beforehand or calculating the fret numbers position.
But the question is,how accurate those method will be to catch that 'sweet spot'?
With first method I mentioned,intonation aside,what if the string gauges tested is different than what player wants? Different tunings? Different string action/bridge angle?
With the later method,what fret numbers usually have the strong harmonics outside 24 frets we all know? The odd or even numbers? What scale used for it,string scale or fret scale?
For example,if you notice every Jackson,Charvel,Ibanez and ESP has a slight difference in their bridge pickup placement. Heck,even Fender strats and teles have even more noticeable measurement. The same also apply Gibson LPs and SGs.
I'm not asking which one is better,or doubt the theory that already exist centuries ago. I just wanna know what the knowledge you guys have. Let's discuss.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

the same harmonic nodes are apparent on any vibrating string regardless of tension, thickness or tuning.
But, just like guitar intonation, pickup placement is all a balancing act.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It just so happens that the majority of harmonics conveniently coincide with where the twenty fourth fret would be located.

 

[Multi Angle Vise]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I think some of the ideas people have about this are a bit specious.

If you say point X is the magical point for picking up the best harmonics, that only applies to an open string. As soon as you start fretting, you've changed the string length, and the pickup is no longer in the magic position. (I don't play much on open strings so I'd need some kind of tracking device and a powered servo bed to move the pickup back and forth to keep me in the magic harmonic zone.)

Also (particularly with humbuckers) the pickup does not sense one narrow point on the string, it has a wider window than that, so it can't be that critical.

For these reasons, I don't agree with the idea that there's a mathematically based "best position". I think it's taste.

Having said that, if the bridge pickup is too close to the bridge, that can give a really tinny sound. I think there needs to be a bit of space between the bridge and the pickup, but that's based on a sample of one guitar where the pickup is hard up against the bridge. Also on a strat I prefer to have the bridge pickup reverse angled (I am a lefty) so the treble side is further away from the bridge, I think this makes the treble strings a bit more meaty, and the bass strings a bit more defined.

For the other positions I'm not too fussed. I'm sure there's a difference in sound between the neck pickup on a 22 fret and on a 24 fret neck, but I haven't got a preference, and I don't think you can say one is better than the other (even if Ed Roman does).

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

24 fretters with HBs, the neck p'up is located in a spot I call the "no tone zone". I hate'em with a passion.

YMMV. Not mine!

 

[marvelous_seven]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

We all know every guitars are different,nowadays machinery are more precise and accurate,and every guitar manufacturing have their own pickup cavity template. Still,two Schecters I've tried both with JB in the bridge and TOM,same scale and also same pickup placement still catch the harmonic in a slight different spot with one a lil bit difference in 'zing' and 'clank' sound. The same also apply with two MIM strats I tried. Is this related to production consistency? Or should we just accept it the way it is?
EVH once said that wrong placement would always make the harmonics sound dissonant. I wonder if this is the case?
How would I know if the harmonic is dissonant?
I haven't try Jackson Soloist or Dinky yet, I heard the pickup placement closer to the neck make the bridge sound sweeter.
Keep em coming guys!

 

[Gypsyblue]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

24 fretters with HBs, the neck p'up is located in a spot I call the "no tone zone". I hate'em with a passion.

YMMV. Not mine!

I agree with this. If the neck pickup polepieces are not positioned right under where the 24th fret would be, I don't enjoy the tone. Had a PRS with 24 frets and no matter what I did to improve the neck pickup tone, it just wasn't happening. Sold it.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

go to 9:55 for joe's thoughts on neck pickup placement.

......i kinda dig the interviewer too...

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

You, too, are a victim of....Neck Pickup Displacement Syndrome.

I agree with this. If the neck pickup polepieces are not positioned right under where the 24th fret would be, I don't enjoy the tone. Had a PRS with 24 frets and no matter what I did to improve the neck pickup tone, it just wasn't happening. Sold it.

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Here's a thread with some discussion of this topic:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=211055

 

[uOpt]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

First off,the search function still not satisfy me. I already read Martin Koch's Building Electric Guitars book but still no cigar.
We all know that pickups placed on the spots with strong harmonics,either by played acoustically beforehand or calculating the fret numbers position.

No "we" don't. This is obvious garbage.

But the question is,how accurate those method will be to catch that 'sweet spot'?
With first method I mentioned,intonation aside,what if the string gauges tested is different than what player wants? Different tunings? Different string action/bridge angle?
With the later method,what fret numbers usually have the strong harmonics outside 24 frets we all know? The odd or even numbers? What scale used for it,string scale or fret scale?
For example,if you notice every Jackson,Charvel,Ibanez and ESP has a slight difference in their bridge pickup placement. Heck,even Fender strats and teles have even more noticeable measurement. The same also apply Gibson LPs and SGs.
I'm not asking which one is better,or doubt the theory that already exist centuries ago. I just wanna know what the knowledge you guys have. Let's discuss.

Of course it changes the sounds but there's no way to make up "ideal" positions by something as absurd as using the open string's oscillations points when you rarely play open strings.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It's a physics 101 deal. Take a length of string, say 25 1/2". The full length of string is the Fundamental harmonic. Divide it in half, that is the 2nd harmonic. Divide it into 3rds, that is the 3rd harmonic. Divide it into 4ths, that is the 4th. Now continue to 10. The 10th harmonic is the string divided by 10 or 2.55". When picked, the string is vibrating in all those different sections. The Tone is the Sum of the sound made by those 10 sections vibrating simultaneously. Phase and amplitude also effect the tone. The sympathetic vibrations, or resonance, of the guitar body, neck, etc., will reinforce some harmonics and reduce others. Picking location and technique also will effect the harmonic production. "Tone is in the hands."

As the string vibrates, the higher order harmonics die off more quickly and your left with the lower order harmonics, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th, etc. All the harmonics or string sections will begin and end at the bridge and fret. Depending on where the pickup is located, it will pick up some harmonics stronger than others. Some sections of string will be at maximum vibration over the pickup and other will be at a node or non-vibration point. (experiment with watching a rubber band to see this.) The bridge pickup will "see" all high order harmonics and they will be strong in comparison to the fundamental. The neck pickup will see different harmonics and the fundamental will be stronger in comparison to the higher order harmonics.

Now back to the string length of 25 1/2". Open the guitar string length is the scale of the guitar, for example 25 1/2". As different frets are used, the string length changes from the full string length to say 1/2 that at the 12th fret or 1/4 at the 24th. Octaves are 1/2 as long. So for the neck pickup especially the harmonic content changes at different fret locations. Not so much for the bridge pickup because, as stated earlier, the harmonics all start or end at the bridge and fret. Moving the bridge pickup closer or farther from the bridge changes the balance of the fundamental to the higher order harmonics. If a node occurs over a humbucker between the coils, it will cancel itself out. That is why there is no perfect location. The harmonics you like may be seen by the pickup at one fret location, but not at another and the pickup may or may not pick the ones you like the best.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It's a physics 101 deal. Take a length of string, say 25 1/2". The full length of string is the Fundamental harmonic. Divide it in half, that is the 2nd harmonic. Divide it into 3rds, that is the 3rd harmonic. Divide it into 4ths, that is the 4th. Now continue to 10. The 10th harmonic is the string divided by 10 or 2.55". When picked, the string is vibrating in all those different sections. The Tone is the Sum of the sound made by those 10 sections vibrating simultaneously. Phase and amplitude also effect the tone. The sympathetic vibrations, or resonance, of the guitar body, neck, etc., will reinforce some harmonics and reduce others. Picking location and technique also will effect the harmonic production. "Tone is in the hands."

As the string vibrates, the higher order harmonics die off more quickly and your left with the lower order harmonics, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th, etc. All the harmonics or string sections will begin and end at the bridge and fret. Depending on where the pickup is located, it will pick up some harmonics stronger than others. Some sections of string will be at maximum vibration over the pickup and other will be at a node or non-vibration point. (experiment with watching a rubber band to see this.) The bridge pickup will "see" all high order harmonics and they will be strong in comparison to the fundamental. The neck pickup will see different harmonics and the fundamental will be stronger in comparison to the higher order harmonics.

Now back to the string length of 25 1/2". Open the guitar string length is the scale of the guitar, for example 25 1/2". As different frets are used, the string length changes from the full string length to say 1/2 that at the 12th fret or 1/4 at the 24th. Octaves are 1/2 as long. So for the neck pickup especially the harmonic content changes at different fret locations. Not so much for the bridge pickup because, as stated earlier, the harmonics all start or end at the bridge and fret. Moving the bridge pickup closer or farther from the bridge changes the balance of the fundamental to the higher order harmonics. If a node occurs over a humbucker between the coils, it will cancel itself out. That is why there is no perfect location. The harmonics you like may be seen by the pickup at one fret location, but not at another and the pickup may or may not pick the ones you like the best.

I am sure you can optimize the heck out of this for open strings.

Unfortunately my notes happen to be open strings only part of the time.

 

[Varg]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It just so happens that the majority of harmonics conveniently coincide with where the twenty fourth fret would be located.

Damn it to hell, but its true. I love 24 frets, but I also love 22 fret neck pickup tones.

 

[Varg]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I agree with this. If the neck pickup polepieces are not positioned right under where the 24th fret would be, I don't enjoy the tone. Had a PRS with 24 frets and no matter what I did to improve the neck pickup tone, it just wasn't happening. Sold it.

This is why I was so shocked to find I DO like the neck tone in a 24 fret guitar when I put in a cheap crappy Ibanez INF 3 pickup. I had tried various Duncans in the neck of that guitar (and other 24 fret HH or HSH guitars)- Pearly Gates, A2Pro, 59, Dimarzio PAF, and I never liked ANY of them. Lifeless, dead tonally.
But the INF3 went in (purely to fill the hole when I decided to sell the lifeless PG) and I love it.
No, it doesnt sound like I want my neck pickups to sound (thick, creamy, warm, like a 59 or Dimarzio PAF in a Les Paul) but it sounds very, very good nonetheless.

Im getting another 24 fret guitar tomorrow and will be looking immediately for another INF3 pickup to pair with the Custom/490R Hybrid I'll be putting in the bridge.

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

All that harmonic stuff is bullocks because it changes every time a player moves to a different position on the fretboard.

It simply boils down to different pickup placements sound different. The closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be. The further a pickup is placed from the fret being played, the "bridge-ier" the tone will be.

 

[Varg]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

All that harmonic stuff is bullocks because it changes every time a player moves to a different position on the fretboard.

It simply boils down to different pickup placements sound different. The closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be. The further a pickup is placed from the fret being played, the "bridge-ier" the tone will be.

Pfft! Come on.

If Im using the bridge pickup and playing a note at the 24th fret, by your logic, that should sound like the neck pickup type tone.
How come it doesnt?
How come neck sounds like neck and bridge sounds like bridge tone no matter where on the fretboard I plat?

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Pfft! Come on.

If Im using the bridge pickup and playing a note at the 24th fret, by your logic, that should sound like the neck pickup type tone.
How come it doesnt?

Uh, it doesn't sound the same because the pickup isn't in the same position as on a 22 fret guitar. Less frets on a 22 fret guitar allow the pickup to be placed closer to the frets. i.e. on a 24 fret guitar, the 22nd fret is further away from the neck pickup. On a 22 fret guitar the 22nd fret is closer to the neck pickup. On a 22 fret guitar EVERY fret is closer to the neck pickup. On a 24 fret guitar EVERY fret is further away from the neck pickup. Therefore EVERY fret will sound different on 22 fret vs 24 fret.

So to repeat: the closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be.

How come neck sounds like neck and bridge sounds like bridge tone no matter where on the fretboard I plat?

Because the pickups are in a fixed position.

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

24 fretters with HBs, the neck p'up is located in a spot I call the "no tone zone". I hate'em with a passion.

YMMV. Not mine!

I agree. There's just no character.

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Thinking about WHY the tone is different with 22 fret neck pickup placement...

Frank Falbo shot down my "center of scale length" theory in the other thread. But I do still think that is a major factor, but I need to clarify what I was saying:

For a given string length, the widest arc of string oscillation will be in the mid-point of string length. It will be most elastic and excited at that point. So if an open string is plucked on a 25" scale guitar, the closer the pickup is to 12.5", then the "neck-ier" the tone will be. Technically, when you fret a note the scale length (speaking length) temporarily changes. So a guitar's scale length is constantly changing as you are playing. But, with that said, if the neck pickup is closer to the neck, then it will be closer to the "center of scale length/speaking length" at every fret. i.e. the pickup will be closer to the widest point of string oscillation.

This brings up the next question: what happens when you get past the center of string length on the other side of the neck (the headstock end)? Say you have a guitar with a really long body and a 5 fret neck with a pickup right at the end of the fretboard. The string oscillation arc won't be as wide at that point, but the neck pickup will be placed closer to the frets (all 5 of them in this example) than with any 22 fret, 22 fret, etc. guitar. So will it sound "neck-ier" or "bridge-ier" at that point? I honestly don't know and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts. I'll continue to think about it more, but I'd hazard to guess that it would start to sound more "bridge-ish".