The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
I hear he had some custom winds from Seymour, but his signature has A2 BBs, and he was probably using the production models:
He went straight to a Fender. I'm not sure which one.
I'm signing off for today.
I hear he had some custom winds from Seymour, but his signature has A2 BBs, and he was probably using the production models:
He went straight to a Fender. I'm not sure which one.
I'm signing off for today.
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Rockstar216
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Ok so with that info being known
1.) you need a DISTORTION pedal for the lead sound you want but I don't know how a dirt pedal into a bass amp would sound or react.
2.) For the cleans I doubt your bass amp sounds like a fender so you most likely will want a low to medium output pup but even then it's still not guaranteed to get you the sound you want.
Ok so with that info being known
1.) you need a DISTORTION pedal for the lead sound you want but I don't know how a dirt pedal into a bass amp would sound or react.
2.) For the cleans I doubt your bass amp sounds like a fender so you most likely will want a low to medium output pup but even then it's still not guaranteed to get you the sound you want.
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
True, but that was meant to be an example of similar tone, and one of the ways in which mine differs is that I use a very soft, natural, overdrive by boosting lows a little, and I don't want my amp to sound like a Fender. Also hard clipping will be too much for the 'Hotel California' tone. Thank you though.
True, but that was meant to be an example of similar tone, and one of the ways in which mine differs is that I use a very soft, natural, overdrive by boosting lows a little, and I don't want my amp to sound like a Fender. Also hard clipping will be too much for the 'Hotel California' tone. Thank you though.
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Best to email the custom shop regarding the hybrid pickup ideas you have, they will be able to answer you more precisely. The Sentinent, Nazgul & Black Winters are fairly new additions to the lineup. Most people are probably at most involved in getting their hands on them first & then maybe trying mag swaps, it will be hard to find someone that has gone to the extremes of forming those hybrids & mag swapped.
Best to email the custom shop regarding the hybrid pickup ideas you have, they will be able to answer you more precisely. The Sentinent, Nazgul & Black Winters are fairly new additions to the lineup. Most people are probably at most involved in getting their hands on them first & then maybe trying mag swaps, it will be hard to find someone that has gone to the extremes of forming those hybrids & mag swapped.
DreX
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Now that you've become more specific, it's a lot easier to say that the pickups alone won't make the critical difference. IMO, the Hotel California tone has almost nothing to do with pickups and everything to do with the amp and how Joe Walsh and Don Felder dig in with their pick attack. They're the kind of guitarists you can guess when you hear them just for their technique alone. I'm pretty sure Felder's guitar was stock Les Paul and Walsh used a stock Strat. The amp, at least for Felder's part, was a Fender Tweed Deluxe, and many musicians have used that vanilla combination of gear and yet didn't sound like they were playing Hotel California. I know just from messing around that in lieu of a cranked Fender Deluxe, you need a rig that can supply a certain upper-mid boost, Tube Screamers do famously well. If your rig is predisposed to a scooped tone, it will be harder to achieve.
Now that you've become more specific, it's a lot easier to say that the pickups alone won't make the critical difference. IMO, the Hotel California tone has almost nothing to do with pickups and everything to do with the amp and how Joe Walsh and Don Felder dig in with their pick attack. They're the kind of guitarists you can guess when you hear them just for their technique alone. I'm pretty sure Felder's guitar was stock Les Paul and Walsh used a stock Strat. The amp, at least for Felder's part, was a Fender Tweed Deluxe, and many musicians have used that vanilla combination of gear and yet didn't sound like they were playing Hotel California. I know just from messing around that in lieu of a cranked Fender Deluxe, you need a rig that can supply a certain upper-mid boost, Tube Screamers do famously well. If your rig is predisposed to a scooped tone, it will be harder to achieve.
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Edgecrusher
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
I dont have to reference specifics to be right in fact many of the times that you've done this cant even be referenced because they are deleted and by far the best examples of your trolling have been deleted. You really want to argue the sematics of troll? Last i checked webster had not added it as a actual entry so its definition is open to some interpetation.
Have fun trying to get the OP Hotel California tone out of a bass amp. Please by all means convince him to buy a set of custom shop pickups that will magically get him where stock pickups have failed.
I dont have to reference specifics to be right in fact many of the times that you've done this cant even be referenced because they are deleted and by far the best examples of your trolling have been deleted. You really want to argue the sematics of troll? Last i checked webster had not added it as a actual entry so its definition is open to some interpetation.
Have fun trying to get the OP Hotel California tone out of a bass amp. Please by all means convince him to buy a set of custom shop pickups that will magically get him where stock pickups have failed.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
My inclination to the minority comes from having my own opinion instead of parroting the opinion of others.
Ive listened to what you say just cause i have disregarded it doesnt mean i didnt read it. Ive told you my opinion. You have others to help you with your quest. But keep in mind I started this with good faith and good will trying actually help you improve your tone in the most meaningful way. You dont have to take my advice I dont care I was just offering it to you that your looking at the wrong piece of your signal chain. But if you want new pickups more power to you.
BTW the post you quoted from me wasnt directed at you. But i stand by my opinion that you are not serious so in effect iam done here but you have others to help you good luck with your new pickups.
My inclination to the minority comes from having my own opinion instead of parroting the opinion of others.
Ive listened to what you say just cause i have disregarded it doesnt mean i didnt read it. Ive told you my opinion. You have others to help you with your quest. But keep in mind I started this with good faith and good will trying actually help you improve your tone in the most meaningful way. You dont have to take my advice I dont care I was just offering it to you that your looking at the wrong piece of your signal chain. But if you want new pickups more power to you.
BTW the post you quoted from me wasnt directed at you. But i stand by my opinion that you are not serious so in effect iam done here but you have others to help you good luck with your new pickups.
DreX
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Yeah, this is off topic, but it's interesting all the same.
The thing is, you can never know why someone posts what they posts. You can never know that someone's aim is to cause offense. If a person has strong convictions and ideals, then people who hold opposing convictions and ideals will take offense. When you have a situation where the former is outnumbered by the latter, you start seeing the "troll" word get thrown around.
One instance there the accusation has some merit is when someone with a certain political viewpoint will join a forum dedicated to an opposing viewpoint, and then feign surprise when they make people angry, but this a forum about pickups, there's no left/right position implied in this subject matter. The main cause of disagreement I've been a part of up to this point has been to call attention to advice given by forums members that has no factual basis, for example, claiming that replacing all the wiring in a guitar will noticeably improve it's tone or reliability; things that are more likely placebo feel-good measures that allow people to take greater pride in their guitar, but which ultimately do nothing. You ask someone to back up their assertion that a $100 something is in fact better than a $50 alternative, and suddenly people lose their crap. If nobody challenges this dubious "common wisdom", it just keeps circling around forever.
Yeah, this is off topic, but it's interesting all the same.
The thing is, you can never know why someone posts what they posts. You can never know that someone's aim is to cause offense. If a person has strong convictions and ideals, then people who hold opposing convictions and ideals will take offense. When you have a situation where the former is outnumbered by the latter, you start seeing the "troll" word get thrown around.
One instance there the accusation has some merit is when someone with a certain political viewpoint will join a forum dedicated to an opposing viewpoint, and then feign surprise when they make people angry, but this a forum about pickups, there's no left/right position implied in this subject matter. The main cause of disagreement I've been a part of up to this point has been to call attention to advice given by forums members that has no factual basis, for example, claiming that replacing all the wiring in a guitar will noticeably improve it's tone or reliability; things that are more likely placebo feel-good measures that allow people to take greater pride in their guitar, but which ultimately do nothing. You ask someone to back up their assertion that a $100 something is in fact better than a $50 alternative, and suddenly people lose their crap. If nobody challenges this dubious "common wisdom", it just keeps circling around forever.
Falloffthebonetone
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
"First of all, what I want is a very clean, but dark pickup, one that is tight, but open, not so cutting as to be thin, and not so thick as to lose clarity. I'd like something that has a midrange voicing like a wah cocked ever-so-slightly, a high end that is crisp, but understated, and a bell-like low-end."
Crisp high end, bell like low end, clean, tight, wah like, and open are not words to describe a pickup with a dark voice. The reason for the controversey on this thread is because what you are describing is a tone that is contradictory. Hotel California mixed with that kind of metal? A2 pro mixed with the black winter? Tight and focused but dynamic and open? These are contradictions. It's asking a whole lot from a pickup man. A full shred with an uoa5 would be too thin? A wah like voiced pickup that is open, tight and clean is the full shred and the uoa5 or a2 would add warmth and make it generally cleaner more dynamic, less cutting and darker. Pickups with the wah like tone are like the alt 8, the full shred, the emg 81, the jb, hotter pickups with a midrange bump, it also makes the sound tighter but the tightness comes from the compression and that would take away the dynamics and the open tone you want. You can try the custom shop I guess but going to them to make this kind of pickup would be like going to a fine bakery to get a cupcake that has the crunch and taste of flaming hot cheetos. Maybe I'm falling off the mark again but so far I have like 2-3 full paragraphs and 2 videos describing the tone you want out of these pickups and it's just not adding up to me.
"First of all, what I want is a very clean, but dark pickup, one that is tight, but open, not so cutting as to be thin, and not so thick as to lose clarity. I'd like something that has a midrange voicing like a wah cocked ever-so-slightly, a high end that is crisp, but understated, and a bell-like low-end."
Crisp high end, bell like low end, clean, tight, wah like, and open are not words to describe a pickup with a dark voice. The reason for the controversey on this thread is because what you are describing is a tone that is contradictory. Hotel California mixed with that kind of metal? A2 pro mixed with the black winter? Tight and focused but dynamic and open? These are contradictions. It's asking a whole lot from a pickup man. A full shred with an uoa5 would be too thin? A wah like voiced pickup that is open, tight and clean is the full shred and the uoa5 or a2 would add warmth and make it generally cleaner more dynamic, less cutting and darker. Pickups with the wah like tone are like the alt 8, the full shred, the emg 81, the jb, hotter pickups with a midrange bump, it also makes the sound tighter but the tightness comes from the compression and that would take away the dynamics and the open tone you want. You can try the custom shop I guess but going to them to make this kind of pickup would be like going to a fine bakery to get a cupcake that has the crunch and taste of flaming hot cheetos. Maybe I'm falling off the mark again but so far I have like 2-3 full paragraphs and 2 videos describing the tone you want out of these pickups and it's just not adding up to me.
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Gibson 1964
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Bingo! Also replicating it with a cheap SS bass amp. You ain't going to get there from here with a pickup swap.
I nearly guarantee I could replicate any tone you wanted but I have something like 15 amps and about 40+ guitars. I also build my own guitars and have tried some truly offbeat combinations since I happen to like exotic woods. Some of them have truly been bizarre.
Also, the attitude of the OP is rather snooty seeming to me. I could cite examples from the original post, but generally speaking, since guitars and amps are modular, every tone we use has been used thousands of times before.
I have been playing for around 2 decades. I can produce very good tones for music and am a reasonably talented player. However, tone is in the fingers to a very large degree, which is why even if I had a famous player's rig, (and actually, I have at various times played rigs belonging to famous players) I won't sound much like them unless our techniques are very similar. (And there is an artist I tend to play like actually) I own a lot of gear. It is fun and I enjoy it, but I always sound like me.
Generally speaking, the further downstream you go in your signal the greater changes to tone it will make at first. Removing a dull speaker makes the amp sound at its max, replacing a lame amp makes an okay guitar sound better, but ultimately, to get the eagles tone will require a better amp.
If you want natural soft clipping overdrive, I would recommend a high quality tube amp first. Otherwise, you will end up sending good money after bad. A pickup will only replicate at the quality of the amp. Generally speaking, fender musicmaster bass and bassman excepted, most bass amps do not sound great with a guitar. There are reasons for this. You want a different frequency response and are going to round off noise frequencies for that instrument. Also, the tones you have provided use guitar amps. There is a good reason for that.
Bingo! Also replicating it with a cheap SS bass amp. You ain't going to get there from here with a pickup swap.
I nearly guarantee I could replicate any tone you wanted but I have something like 15 amps and about 40+ guitars. I also build my own guitars and have tried some truly offbeat combinations since I happen to like exotic woods. Some of them have truly been bizarre.
Also, the attitude of the OP is rather snooty seeming to me. I could cite examples from the original post, but generally speaking, since guitars and amps are modular, every tone we use has been used thousands of times before.
I have been playing for around 2 decades. I can produce very good tones for music and am a reasonably talented player. However, tone is in the fingers to a very large degree, which is why even if I had a famous player's rig, (and actually, I have at various times played rigs belonging to famous players) I won't sound much like them unless our techniques are very similar. (And there is an artist I tend to play like actually) I own a lot of gear. It is fun and I enjoy it, but I always sound like me.
Generally speaking, the further downstream you go in your signal the greater changes to tone it will make at first. Removing a dull speaker makes the amp sound at its max, replacing a lame amp makes an okay guitar sound better, but ultimately, to get the eagles tone will require a better amp.
If you want natural soft clipping overdrive, I would recommend a high quality tube amp first. Otherwise, you will end up sending good money after bad. A pickup will only replicate at the quality of the amp. Generally speaking, fender musicmaster bass and bassman excepted, most bass amps do not sound great with a guitar. There are reasons for this. You want a different frequency response and are going to round off noise frequencies for that instrument. Also, the tones you have provided use guitar amps. There is a good reason for that.
Rockstar216
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Gibson 1964 just made me think of another reason of why your going about this the hard way is that you have a Bass speaker in that amp so that right their is going to complicate things because of how the frequencies are voiced for bass guitars and not lead guitars.
Good luck to you in finding your tone with that amp but you would be better off using a actual amp and speaker that was made for lead guitar specifically.
Gibson 1964 just made me think of another reason of why your going about this the hard way is that you have a Bass speaker in that amp so that right their is going to complicate things because of how the frequencies are voiced for bass guitars and not lead guitars.
Good luck to you in finding your tone with that amp but you would be better off using a actual amp and speaker that was made for lead guitar specifically.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
I have one word for my experienced forum bros: staybobo
I have one word for my experienced forum bros: staybobo
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
What's that, a non extinct dodo?
What's that, a non extinct dodo?
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
True, my pick attack also plays a large role in my articulation and tone. I wasn't really looking for the precise Hotel California tone or the Sylosis tone; I was just trying to convey certain aspects of my tone that are common denominators in these tones. It is very hard to convey what my tone is like otherwise, and there will be aspects of it which will seem contradictory, if I describe it as it comes across to me. It's rather like conveying the qualities of a Rembrandt through a mime.
Joe Walsh used a Tele.
True, my pick attack also plays a large role in my articulation and tone. I wasn't really looking for the precise Hotel California tone or the Sylosis tone; I was just trying to convey certain aspects of my tone that are common denominators in these tones. It is very hard to convey what my tone is like otherwise, and there will be aspects of it which will seem contradictory, if I describe it as it comes across to me. It's rather like conveying the qualities of a Rembrandt through a mime.
Joe Walsh used a Tele.
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
I genuinely appreciate the time and thought you have invested in wanting to help me. I understand your opinion, and was only seeking to give you insight into my situation, as well as clear up some misunderstandings. However, you chose to ignore it.
I know that post wasn't for me.
I genuinely appreciate the time and thought you have invested in wanting to help me. I understand your opinion, and was only seeking to give you insight into my situation, as well as clear up some misunderstandings. However, you chose to ignore it.
I know that post wasn't for me.
DreX
New member
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
If you can at least nail the Hotel California tone, then at least you're in very close proximity to where you want to be, and more to the point, you're not going find what you're looking for in pickup changes alone. Pickup swapping probably won't even get you half of the way there. It's often said that you can play any style of music with any guitar, and conversely, any style of music with any pickup. Pickups matter, but their influence on the overall tone obviously has limitations.
For me, pickups aren't really about tone as much as they are about feel and playing comfort. It's easier to play certain genres with certain pickups, not necessarily because they sound right, but because you don't have to pluck as hard, pick as lightly, or be as particular in your technique to get a certain sound. For examples, Teles and their stock pickups are known for their Twang, but you can make almost any guitar twang if you attack the strings closer to the bridge, it's just that a Tele bridge will give you that sound without having to work as hard for it. It's why they say Hendrix sounded like Hendrix with any guitar he picked up, because he could adjust his style to the guitar, and the end result was always more or less the same.
If you can at least nail the Hotel California tone, then at least you're in very close proximity to where you want to be, and more to the point, you're not going find what you're looking for in pickup changes alone. Pickup swapping probably won't even get you half of the way there. It's often said that you can play any style of music with any guitar, and conversely, any style of music with any pickup. Pickups matter, but their influence on the overall tone obviously has limitations.
For me, pickups aren't really about tone as much as they are about feel and playing comfort. It's easier to play certain genres with certain pickups, not necessarily because they sound right, but because you don't have to pluck as hard, pick as lightly, or be as particular in your technique to get a certain sound. For examples, Teles and their stock pickups are known for their Twang, but you can make almost any guitar twang if you attack the strings closer to the bridge, it's just that a Tele bridge will give you that sound without having to work as hard for it. It's why they say Hendrix sounded like Hendrix with any guitar he picked up, because he could adjust his style to the guitar, and the end result was always more or less the same.
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Sad and true, but you can tell when someone is trolling. When someone is genuinely trying to express their opinions, which they think are the truth, they are trying to uphold a viewpoint, and as a part of upholding it, oppose the contradictory viewpoint. With trolls, they just attack a viewpoint to cause offence, and don't usually care about establishing anything as the truth, and don't care about whether they border on irrationality as long as they cut and hurt.
Sounds like a discussion for the player's room.
Sad and true, but you can tell when someone is trolling. When someone is genuinely trying to express their opinions, which they think are the truth, they are trying to uphold a viewpoint, and as a part of upholding it, oppose the contradictory viewpoint. With trolls, they just attack a viewpoint to cause offence, and don't usually care about establishing anything as the truth, and don't care about whether they border on irrationality as long as they cut and hurt.
Sounds like a discussion for the player's room.
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
Sorry, that was my mistake. What I was describing is not the tone of the pickup alone, but the tone I am aiming at with all my rig behind it. Sorry for causing this potentially huge headache, I know what it's like from personal experience. Thank you for replying nonetheless. What I want from the pickup is for it to be balanced in terms of EQ like the Black Winters, very crisp and responsive on all frequencies, a little assertive, having something like the slight growl the Screamin' Demon has clean or the vocal quality the A2Ps have, but not amp-driving at all, like a strat with a boomier, deeper tone split in an LP.
The description of my tone does seem very contradictory, but there are certain things one associates with the adjectives I used for the tone that I disregard. My tone is very... unfamiliar, to say the least, even in these aspects.
I had posted those videos and descriptions to try and convey an impression about the common denominators of my tone, not as perfect representatives of it.
Sorry, that was my mistake. What I was describing is not the tone of the pickup alone, but the tone I am aiming at with all my rig behind it. Sorry for causing this potentially huge headache, I know what it's like from personal experience. Thank you for replying nonetheless. What I want from the pickup is for it to be balanced in terms of EQ like the Black Winters, very crisp and responsive on all frequencies, a little assertive, having something like the slight growl the Screamin' Demon has clean or the vocal quality the A2Ps have, but not amp-driving at all, like a strat with a boomier, deeper tone split in an LP.
The description of my tone does seem very contradictory, but there are certain things one associates with the adjectives I used for the tone that I disregard. My tone is very... unfamiliar, to say the least, even in these aspects.
I had posted those videos and descriptions to try and convey an impression about the common denominators of my tone, not as perfect representatives of it.
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone
I am actually seeking to achieve a radically different tone from what you have ever heard, something almost as fresh as the wah-wah.
The common insistence of most of most of the people on this forum is that I replace my amp, or else pickups will not make much of a difference. But, I have stated this before, I am satisfied with what my amp can do for my tone, aside from certain obvious limitations, and I believe it is unique in it's voicing. I will not upgrade until I can find a good all-rounder amp that replicates the plus-points of my amp and I can rely on in any playing situation. And I know the pickup upgrade will make a difference, because I know the capabilities and limitations of my stock pickups and have a clear idea of how they can be solved. I'm aiming at a hundred per cent useability for me.
I am actually seeking to achieve a radically different tone from what you have ever heard, something almost as fresh as the wah-wah.
The common insistence of most of most of the people on this forum is that I replace my amp, or else pickups will not make much of a difference. But, I have stated this before, I am satisfied with what my amp can do for my tone, aside from certain obvious limitations, and I believe it is unique in it's voicing. I will not upgrade until I can find a good all-rounder amp that replicates the plus-points of my amp and I can rely on in any playing situation. And I know the pickup upgrade will make a difference, because I know the capabilities and limitations of my stock pickups and have a clear idea of how they can be solved. I'm aiming at a hundred per cent useability for me.
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