What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

[cronnin]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

It's one of those songs that is really simple but for some reason I find it catchy. I wouldn't say it's 'fake' aggression though.
. The album itself is raw and roughly produced which would obviously not make it a good example for a modern high gain sound. It has an odd charm to it though. I recommend reading the tabs to some of the stuff from Alien or City. Also that tab is wrong. The notes are the other way round. In fact the tone from Alien or The New Black is probably what is being described.

It's catchy because of the sound of his voice and singing melody.
This dose of enthusiasm/obsession for aggression is kind unhealthy for human beings. I can't think of them living this way in private lives.
That's why I personally think of it as a pose. Something like Marylin Manson or Cradle Of Filth.
I just can't imagine "the video Devon" hugging his kid without it screaming for help

I've seen lots of a real aggression from Axl or Mustaine, but those men were on speed crack and cocaine all together at the same time
It's not like you can fake Axls voice. That's the beauty of his, because he is real, he is not faking it, he really is insane

Todays kids, when they want to sound aggressive, just use a digital vocal processor, turn the Zeus effect on, and they think it's done deal.
No it's not. It is fake, and people realize it.

People tend to fake all forms of nonconformism just to gain attention.
It is the way the whole indie rock industry works.
You can get your eye-liner, take a hat, Les Paul and play something melod-ish, while wearing peace sing on your left arm and crooked cross on your right, and bingo there you are.
You don't even have to know to play guitar, just E penthatonic. It's not like Keith Richards does know much more than that.
If you get a chance to say something about penguins dying on Antarctica and that you would shag Lady Gaga you're rolling.

The sound of the guitars is something I refer to as modern high-gain, but I can't really hear it, the tuning is soooo low. It can easily be a SS amp, there would be no difference.

As for the tab, of course it's backward.
It's transcribed from GP 6.66 in satanic coda. Everything there is backwards

 

[Kam]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

That's weird, I posted this exact same song to a friends Facebook page like half an hour before you posted it here. She's convinced that these guys supported Snow Patrol a while back. I'm trying to show her that while that image is actually pretty funny it would no doubt result in someone definitely losing their job.

Such a rockin' tune.

 

[eschoendorff]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

It's just one example. I don't think you can really call End Game the definitive "HERE IS MODERN HI GAIN".
Half the tightness comes from having a robotic rhythm guitar hand like Dave Mustaine anyway :laugh2:

Yes, I can.

In all seriousness, it was posted simply as an example of modern hi gain that is articulate, saturated, full and resonant. It CAN be done.

 

[dominus]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

 

[eschoendorff]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Anything with more than 3 preamp tubes.

yep, valvekings are "vintage gain"

lol

 

[SFW]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

When it has this many tubes it's modern high gain. lol!

I've had the gain to 10 on the high gain channel once... I turned it back down to 6 shortly afterward.

 

[PVFan]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Currently,

the Chung is King. Whatever else may follow adheres to the will of that tone throne occupant, and that sinister force is being wielded by a cold and heartless giant.

 

[NecroPolo]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

More than enough gain, no attack, no dynamics, no headroom, compressed sound. Many-tubes and many-knobs amps. Overcranked Mesa Recto, Peavey 5150 and the like. Somewhat uniform sound. Something that fits certain bands perfectly that I sometimes like to listen - but if I got a somewhat similar sound out of my rig once, I'd put down the X and try to fix the amp.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

It's catchy because of the sound of his voice and singing melody.
This dose of enthusiasm/obsession for aggression is kind unhealthy for human beings. I can't think of them living this way in private lives.
That's why I personally think of it as a pose. Something like Marylin Manson or Cradle Of Filth.
I just can't imagine "the video Devon" hugging his kid without it screaming for help

He is bipolar. His entire notoriety revolves around his insanity.

I've seen lots of a real aggression from Axl or Mustaine, but those men were on speed crack and cocaine all together at the same time
It's not like you can fake Axls voice. That's the beauty of his, because he is real, he is not faking it, he really is insane

Because it's not like I listen to those bands as well, I'm just a stupid kid who fakes everything, not a seasoned, well rounded listener/performer with any experience in music business or production whatsoever.

Todays kids, when they want to sound aggressive, just use a digital vocal processor, turn the Zeus effect on, and they think it's done deal.
No it's not. It is fake, and people realize it.

Who are 'todays kids'? All of them? Someone you glanced at when you went grocery shopping? I'm sick of weasel words. Which kids? Where are they? What is the synthesizer? Are you referring to autotune or something else? Are you going to cite your references?

People tend to fake all forms of nonconformism just to gain attention.
It is the way the whole indie rock industry works.
You can get your eye-liner, take a hat, Les Paul and play something melod-ish, while wearing peace sing on your left arm and crooked cross on your right, and bingo there you are.
You don't even have to know to play guitar, just E penthatonic. It's not like Keith Richards does know much more than that.
If you get a chance to say something about penguins dying on Antarctica and that you would shag Lady Gaga you're rolling.

Relevance? And besides the industry gets worse than that. You don't even need to have instruments in your music or know how to sing on key.

The sound of the guitars is something I refer to as modern high-gain, but I can't really hear it, the tuning is soooo low. It can easily be a SS amp, there would be no difference.

It's open C major, it is identical to the tuning of Led Zepplin III.

It appears I offended everyone with my 'fake example of music' when I was just demonstrating a bands change in direction brought about by actual anger. I didn't expect so much of this

I will just let you all pontificate over 'tone' and have no further contribution to this thread.

Au revoir.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

 

[sosomething]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Nah, he's kinda right. We did sort of jump all over him for posting the SYL stuff.

FWIW, the entire concept of "fake aggression" does seem a little silly to me, and my comment was mostly in jest.

This thread took a really weird turn and hasn't looked back for pages...

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Maybe you're right. But I couldn't listen to more than forty-five seconds of either one of those clips, and I don't think they're a good example of anything musical whatsoever.

I didn't think the attacks were directed against Beer$. They were against FYL, and, as we all know, anonymous internet attacks against people more famous than we are are always acceptable. That's Internet 101.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Anyway I lied. I am going to contribute more to this thread. As far as 'modern hi gain' goes, which I take to mean a specific flavour/characteristic of distortion... As an independant producer, I am sick of people coming in and wanting to use a whole asston of gain for rhythm tracks. It doesn't work for a clean, tight sound at all. Most of the characteristic they are looking for (the grind or whatever) dissapears anyway. Less is more. But I think it has more to do with the voicing than anything else. This is also not so much obtained by the amplifier. Tones on albums are very much like fingerprints.

With all the vintage to classic high gain tones posted so far, you can tell that alot of it is to do with time period. Note the reverb sounds, the extremely obvious analogue desk qualities, it's dated to a time of release rather than how much gain. A vintage amp in a modern studio tracked digitally may sound more modern than you'd think. A Diesel through an analogue tape console may sound vintage. Mic placement is to an extent, more important than amplifier choice. With the right mic placement you can make a not so good sounding amp sound really interesting. It's called the salvage technique.

To me there isn't 'good' or 'bad'. There's hardness factor. I do not mean heaviness. A marble hitting tiles is a very hard sound, a glockenspiel is harder than a marshall amp. There's characteristics like 'grainy, gritty, smooth, spongy, hard'. It all comes down to personal choice. Meshuggah seem to like very smooth hi gain with an obvious hard almost 'quacky' attack. Somehow I don't think a tweed on steroids would grant them what they are trying to get across. But they and other bands usually know what they want, we don't because we're not them.

Let's not miss the big picture for the sake of guitar tone. Other instruments need love too. Mixing is as dark an art as songwriting, you are painting a sonic picture. Also note choice and composition is where it all starts. Don't forget that either.

 

[cronnin]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

@Beer$

I never meant to say that you are ignorant, or that you are not too much in music, or that you never listened much to some 'old' bands like Megadeth or G'n'R.
I just stated those two as an example of a sincere insane behavior
It was by no means meant to be personal.

As for kids, I rarely go to those clubs they gather. I go there like once a year just to see what's going on.
I see lots of new age, techno, emo kids, freaky clothing, too much piercings and tattoos, make-up, jewelry, emblems, etc.
I don't have anything in common with them, I just don't feel the need to express myself through my image anymore.
If I wear something like this:
http://stuntgranny.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/kerry-king.jpg

it won't make me feel more dark, cool or aggressive, but just more funny to myself
And if I see something like that on the other kid, I will just think-Look this stupid kid is gonna poke his (or someones) eye out after 2nd can of bear.
I don't know how to explain it to you, but as I am getting older, I just see all that as a pose - behavior, excess bodily picturing, funny haircuts, ridiculous gain levels, guitar detuning.

When more than half of your artistic impression is not the music but something else, and that music you play is of disputable quality, so that music is obviously overweighted by other emanations dictated by the music industry or personal ego problems, then I call it music no more. Maybe performance, theater. But you can't call yourself a musician if it is your second quality

Anyway I agree with you about the modern tone depending a lot on recording equipment, voicing and post production. I'm not too much into music production, but all you've stated sounds pretty true to me. Some very high gain riffs from the 80-es still sound 'vintage' to my ears even though they have more gain than todays high gain metal bands.

Cheers , and please don't take this personal, as it is not intended to be.
I don't judge people by the music they listen.
For God's sake, I was listening to "Return Of Darkness And Evil" LP when I was a kid :eyecrazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d06wIZ1T3xE
Please don't ridicule me too much for this after watching




Well, I suppose that the evolution of hard rock music was directly dependent on the equipment available. This is my perspective. Maybe bands wanted to sound more aggressive in 1978, but it came true only after Marshall released their JCM800 model. Before that, it seems to me that (rhythm) guitar tone was more based on power amp distortion. Somewhere around 1980 engineers begun exploring the magical world of cascade preamp construction, and that's when we got bands like Maiden, Metallica, and first classic metal tone. If you listen to Maidens Prowler or Remember Tomorrow, it sounds like pop music these days Metallica had to mod their amps. Hetfield was not satisfied with the amount of distortion, so he had it hot rodded before 1983.

Bands wanted more aggression from the amps, so the amp makers gave it to them. We got Mark II, JCM900, Soldanos, Randalls, Peaveys, and many other high gain amps by the end of the decade. Some of them combined with active pups had more than enough preamp distortion. Even with 'only' four preamp tubes (always one being phase inverter, and 1/2 being cathode follower) you still could have 5 preamp stages available. Heaven for the design engineers and true metallians

IMHO those amps reached the maximum of tolerable preamp saturation, and everything else above that is pure decadence

I know that bands and guitar players need to seek their personal tone. They feel the need to leave their stamp in the music world. Everyone would like to be remembered one day for his exceptional guitar tone, like Page or Hendrix are remembered today. I could get pretty nasty tone with EMG and Mesa, but everyone would say - Here's another Metallica clone, just another kid trying to be James. So that is not the answer. I approve exploring. I just think that this tunnel is kind of a dead end. As someone stated up there you can't even hear the guitars anymore.

Some guys have pretty nice lead tone.
It's profound, fat, but still transparent and liquid; and at the same time strong, saturated, violin-like.
I can't deny that even if they play in bands like SYL. It's modern high gain lead tone.
But the rhythm guitar is what I am generally dissatisfied with.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

That's ok, thanks for taking the time to sort it all out. I don't believe for a minute that what industry dictates is benchmark. I mean come on. Turn on your most popular radio station and you get 40 electronic pop songs which require zero musicianship or talent and only those 40 until 2 are switched out every month. Only two a month. I'll take the crusty, rough cut death metal of Bathory over that anyday thankyou. Why do you think when the said 'artists' play/sing.. I mean... mime to a prerecorded backing track live they need so many lasers and smoke and backup dancers and sets that move around and weird costumes... Whereas a heavier, less accessible band doesn't need all the extra crap and just focuses on the music and putting on a great show just with what they have.

The people I really respect and relate to the most are the ones that self actualize and do something they want to do without caring about the approval of other people. Have you ever seen Dimebag unhappy? He might not have been Einstein or anything but he was f*cking Zen.

A little secret about mic'ing is not to go too close with close mic'ing. Speakers produce a 'flame' of sound where there is a spot projected forward where all the frequencies hit at roughly the same time. If you find this flame, you can dial in any tone in the world and it will stay strong in the mix and survive overdubs and drums.

 

[eschoendorff]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Anyway I lied. I am going to contribute more to this thread. As far as 'modern hi gain' goes, which I take to mean a specific flavour/characteristic of distortion... As an independant producer, I am sick of people coming in and wanting to use a whole asston of gain for rhythm tracks. It doesn't work for a clean, tight sound at all. Most of the characteristic they are looking for (the grind or whatever) dissapears anyway. Less is more. But I think it has more to do with the voicing than anything else. This is also not so much obtained by the amplifier. Tones on albums are very much like fingerprints.

With all the vintage to classic high gain tones posted so far, you can tell that alot of it is to do with time period. Note the reverb sounds, the extremely obvious analogue desk qualities, it's dated to a time of release rather than how much gain. A vintage amp in a modern studio tracked digitally may sound more modern than you'd think. A Diesel through an analogue tape console may sound vintage. Mic placement is to an extent, more important than amplifier choice. With the right mic placement you can make a not so good sounding amp sound really interesting. It's called the salvage technique.

To me there isn't 'good' or 'bad'. There's hardness factor. I do not mean heaviness. A marble hitting tiles is a very hard sound, a glockenspiel is harder than a marshall amp. There's characteristics like 'grainy, gritty, smooth, spongy, hard'. It all comes down to personal choice. Meshuggah seem to like very smooth hi gain with an obvious hard almost 'quacky' attack. Somehow I don't think a tweed on steroids would grant them what they are trying to get across. But they and other bands usually know what they want, we don't because we're not them.

Let's not miss the big picture for the sake of guitar tone. Other instruments need love too. Mixing is as dark an art as songwriting, you are painting a sonic picture. Also note choice and composition is where it all starts. Don't forget that either.

Holy crap - awesome post. :beerchug:

 

[Animal]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

A little secret about mic'ing is not to go too close with close mic'ing. Speakers produce a 'flame' of sound where there is a spot projected forward where all the frequencies hit at roughly the same time. If you find this flame, you can dial in any tone in the world and it will stay strong in the mix and survive overdubs and drums.

Say...you haven't read a book called Mixing with your Mind by Mike Stavrou have you? :friday:

For God's sake, I was listening to "Return Of Darkness And Evil" LP when I was a kid :eyecrazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d06wIZ1T3xE
Please don't ridicule me too much for this after watching

Bathory is, or should I say was awesome!

 

[El Dunco]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

Say, you wouldn't have read a book called Mixing with your Mind by Mike Stavrou have you? :cool2:

You guessed it. Stav is awesome. I didn't know people read these days. High five.

 

[Animal]

Re: What does modern high-gain mean to you? (NAD related)

I haven't read the entire thing, but I did borrow it from my Uni library for a research project. The flame thing really sticks in my mind. It makes sense. You don't listen to your amp with your ears right up against the speaker grill. That's why I think a more natural sound is captured at a distance.

I love roomy sounds, although it's not always practical, especially for busy high-gain playing where the instruments are competing with each other. If I ever get around to purchasing a decent condenser mic with an onboard figure-8 pattern I'm gonna experiment with some mid-side configurations.