Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

[LLL]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

Speaking of accurate information and the Custom family of pickups...

Here's a spectrum analysis (average over time) of my pre-1983 SH-5 Custom (DCD) vs. my 2013 SH-5 Custom:



That should tell ya how the pickup would perform frequency-wise.

(also proves that ceramic mags hold up over time)

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

That's not the EQ profile of the pickup, that is the EQ profile of the input which is filtered by the pickup. In order to find the true EQ curve of the pickup, you would conduct a frequency sweep. This is standard practice for analyzing audio components.

 

[justFred]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

From the cumulative predominant articulations thus far: EQ data and DCR data provided by pickup companies offers little pertinent information that would be considered helpful to the end user. What quantitative data should be provided?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

What quantitative data should be provided?

A nice 21 day exchange policy can do more than any graphs or numbers can.

 

[gregory]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

From the cumulative predominant articulations thus far: EQ data and DCR data provided by pickup companies offers little pertinent information that would be considered helpful to the end user. What quantitative data should be provided?

Dunno. Good luck choosing between a Vintage Rails, Cool Rails Neck, a Lil' Screamin' Demon neck and any other neck model single sized humbucker based on the EQ graph and output bar.

 

[gregory]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

A nice 21 day exchange policy can do more than any graphs or numbers can.

That extends beyond the US.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

From the cumulative predominant articulations thus far: EQ data and DCR data provided by pickup companies offers little pertinent information that would be considered helpful to the end user. What quantitative data should be provided?

The attempts they've made in the past to quantify voltage output is not a bad idea, it's just that there is no standard on regulating the input so that it's uniform across the industry. Take alternators for example, they rate amperage output based on 6000 RPM, so they decide on an input in order to rate the output. They should resume trying to quantify output, but they should be a lot more professional in terms of adhering to a standard methodology, and then disclosing the methodology.

That tells voltage, when it comes to the frequency response, you have Q factor and resonant cut off frequency, again, both of these should be published with a standardized load, because almost nobody uses a pickup in a true "no load" context, that would entail wiring the pickup straight to a wireless transmitter. Inductance can also be used to infer the resonant peak frequency, and you can find that value with a $90 LCR meter. Now you might be thinking "I don't know what Q factor and peak frequency mean!", but with some simple description and a depiction, it can be made clear, and when you compare either the plots of these values, or a table of these values, against pickups you're already familiar with, then it will be fairly clear to you, and best of all it would be factual and accurate, not some wild guess three bar EQ that someone just made up.

 

[Ben1962]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

So all Pups sound the same? Been awhile since I was involved in LCR circuits, but I cant believe that all PUPS have the same frequency response? Call it a filter, call it what you will but the frequency performance is not a constant. Again, why have so many pickups? All marketing? I doubt it

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

So all Pups sound the same? Been awhile since I was involved in LCR circuits, but I cant believe that all PUPS have the same frequency response? Call it a filter, call it what you will but the frequency performance is not a constant. Again, why have so many pickups? All marketing? I doubt it

Where did you get "all Pups sound the same" from?

 

[justFred]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

The attempts they've made in the past to quantify voltage output is not a bad idea, it's just that there is no standard on regulating the input so that it's uniform across the industry. Take alternators for example, they rate amperage output based on 6000 RPM, so they decide on an input in order to rate the output. They should resume trying to quantify output, but they should be a lot more professional in terms of adhering to a standard methodology, and then disclosing the methodology.

That tells voltage, when it comes to the frequency response, you have Q factor and resonant cut off frequency, again, both of these should be published with a standardized load, because almost nobody uses a pickup in a true "no load" context, that would entail wiring the pickup straight to a wireless transmitter. Inductance can also be used to infer the resonant peak frequency, and you can find that value with a $90 LCR meter. Now you might be thinking "I don't know what Q factor and peak frequency mean!", but with some simple description and a depiction, it can be made clear, and when you compare either the plots of these values, or a table of these values, against pickups you're already familiar with, then it will be fairly clear to you, and best of all it would be factual and accurate, not some wild guess three bar EQ that someone just made up.

and there you step off the plank into the absurd. trying to scientificate the perception of tone, you might as add a standardized human sense of hearing along with standardization of all the other factors between the pickup and the ear of the player. that is why this and similar forums are so important. the cumulative experiences of many can provide the only practical guide.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

and there you step off the plank into the absurd. trying to scientificate the perception of tone, you might as add a standardized human sense of hearing along with standardization of all the other factors between the pickup and the ear of the player.

They do it for loud speakers, and have for a long time. Look at Jensen or Celestion's websites, they show these sorts of information. It's not absurd, it's that you have to bother yourself to understand what it is a pickup can and cannot do, and that task is not made any easier when pickup companies deliberately present misleading and imaginary information.

that is why this and similar forums are so important. the cumulative experiences of many can provide the only practical guide.

These forums are grossly inefficient for product info. You get people asking the same questions all the time, asking for this pickup to be compare to that pickup, and what you get in response is a smorgasbord of bias and personal opinion with a little sprinkle of actual information here an there.

 

[SavageRiffer]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

After reading your smear attack, I am surprised that the graph is off so little to you. 4,8,7 doesnt seem to be a huge difference from 3,7,7. TBH, I am a newer snowflake to this blog as well as guitar. I go more by these great commentators than the Duncan site. Unless I am offended by an opinion that differs from mine. And yes, I am kidding.

Ah yes, a newb putting in for some brownie points... good for you. I'm sure you'll make a great follower. "Smear campaign?" Don't you think you're being a little dramatic? Are you a theater arts major in high school or something? LOL! Like you, I'm kidding. How many guitars have you built? Well I've built 30 and have modified probably 50. I'm just an amateur, but when building guitars, selecting the right pickups are important to the design process. I can tell you that a Padouk neck is going to sound and respond differently than a Maple neck. Likewise, an Ash body will sound different from a Mahogany body. If you can't rely on the pickup descriptions being accurate, then it can be a waste of time and money. If you knew this, you would support the suggestion of more accurate descriptions. Nothing sucks more than to buy a pickup that doesn't sound like it's described and then have to buy a shipping label, send it back, and wait for the return just to install it all over again. To YOU 4,8,7 is insignificant because, as you said, you are "newer" at guitar, but it is significant when evaluating it for installation in a particular guitar for a particular genre of music. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, it might be more beneficial to SD sales because people might pass up the Custom Custom thinking it doesn't have enough low end when it actually does.

Speaking of accurate information and the Custom family of pickups...

Here's a spectrum analysis (average over time) of my pre-1983 SH-5 Custom (DCD) vs. my 2013 SH-5 Custom:

View attachment 86519

That should tell ya how the pickup would perform frequency-wise.

(also proves that ceramic mags hold up over time)

That's kind of what I'm talking about right there.

That's not the EQ profile of the pickup, that is the EQ profile of the input which is filtered by the pickup. In order to find the true EQ curve of the pickup, you would conduct a frequency sweep. This is standard practice for analyzing audio components.

I've seen software that does a graphical representation similar to the post above. Maybe it was George Metropoulos or someone who did a video talking about some frequency analyzer or some kind of technical box that sounds similar to what you're talking about. Can you show an example of it? Why doesn't SD use something like that? It seems simple enough to plug in and get a reading.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

I've seen software that does a graphical representation similar to the post above. Maybe it was George Metropoulos or someone who did a video talking about some frequency analyzer or some kind of technical box that sounds similar to what you're talking about. Can you show an example of it? Why doesn't SD use something like that? It seems simple enough to plug in and get a reading.

If you look at the P12Q for example https://www.jensentone.com/vintage-alnico/p12q there is both an actual response plot and an impedance plot

The reason that plot is so complicated is because speakers have "mechanical" impedances as well as a electrical, as do microphones, becuase you have paper and diaphragms of various shapes moving through the air. A pickup faces an entirely electrical impedance since there are no moving parts in the pickup, so a pickup's plot is about as simple looking as the blue impedance line in the speaker plot.

This company called Atlantic Audio took a stab at supplying impedance curves for pickups http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=400 , and they allow you to overlay the curves so you can see which have the higher Q and the higher peak frequency. They even let you select the load values, so for example you can compare the response of a humbucker with 500k pots to a Strat pickup with 250k pots. The main problem is their presentation is not very slick, and the database is big but not comprehensive. If Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio did this, I'm sure they could make it a lot smoother and it would presumably include their full catalog. So then if you wanted a slightly brighter pickup, you could see for yourself which pickup will deliver, rather than rely on JoeBlow123's opinion on SDUGF, and, probably more problematically, you might come to realize you only need to spend $10 on a new pot, rather than $100 on a new pickup, which is bad for the bottom line. Good for your wallet, but you cares about your wallet, right?

 

[SavageRiffer]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

Thanks for explaining. Very good explanation. Celestion has a similar chart. If it's measurable and easy enough to do, then why does SD rely only on what they hear instead of using some baseline science? It seems easy enough to say "Here's the tone measurement" and then in the description tell us what they think.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

Thanks for explaining. Very good explanation. Celestion has a similar chart. If it's measurable and easy enough to do, then why does SD rely only on what they hear instead of using some baseline science? It seems easy enough to say "Here's the tone measurement" and then in the description tell us what they think.

Two reasons seem to be at play, first, as I alluded to, the mass confusion they help foment with talk about "scatter winding" and "authentic formvar wire" and other irrelevancies like that, and the overall belief that pickups are more complicated than they really are, is better for business anyway. IMO, it's one thing to place blame on the customer for not doing their homework, but it's entirely another to present information that misleads, such as EQ graphs that have no factual basis.

The other reason, is based on the haphazard "pickup comparison chart" https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/product-news/pickup-comparison-chart and their even more haphazard output listing https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?278978-Seymour-Duncan-mV-Data/page3 , I'm not sure there's someone there with the technical know how to create impedance plots and the like. They're in the business of putting pickups together, not necessarily sniffing them.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

My number one rule, if a description for a part of an instrument requires a graph or a wall of text to describe, it would be better for your musical career not to buy it. A Seth Lover sounds amazing, but it can't create tone that isn't there. A Chinese knockoff may sound like crap, but a good EQ and a good player will still sound phenomenal.

 

[Ben1962]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

Before I continue to melt, my point was just that the values arent that drastically off. I mean what is a 4? Or a 3? Now if they listed a pup as say a 3 in treble, and yet when you play it sounds like all high frequencies and brittle, I would consider that very misleading. I am sure your experience is far greater than mine, its just the
amount off isnt exactly mind blowing. Thanks for the comments

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

A nice 21 day exchange policy can do more than any graphs or numbers can.

No kidding.

And for the record, the Custom Custom I purchased sounded pretty much exactly how I expected it to.

I kept it for a few months then sold it.

Ultimately, it wasn’t for me.

But that wasn’t the fault of Duncan’s description.

It was just too smooth and didn’t have enough texture.

 

[Toejam]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

By the way, Dimarzio doesn't have a fancy website for a forum, but the general consensus is their descriptions are always very good.

Is this not an official forum for DiMarzio? http://www.dimarzioforum.com/forum/index.php

 

[Mincer]

Re: Why Doesn't Seymour Duncan Fix The Custom Custom SH-11 EQ Chart?

Let's face it, for most pickup buyers, a simple BMT chart with a description is enough. Add some product videos and a forum, and you can pretty much get all the info you need. So far, everyone who has bought 99% of the pickups sold thought it was enough to make an educated decision. In my case, I read all I can read, asked questions, and made a purchase, so I could get on to playing (which is what I ultimately want to do).