Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I hope sales of the existing model are brisk enough to warrant a V2. I'd love a pickup platter for Strat that had a 12 way knob, six single coil sounds, maybe some humbucker approximations and a couple weird voicing that don't exist in nature. A USB hookup that allows crafting the voicing via software would be a killer app for pickup nuts. I think in the age of the amp modeler that has 20 amp models, a faux vintage pickups with only two sounds is about a dozen choices shy of perfection.

I'll just requote this for clarity.

If you're *crafting* the voicing via software, that strongly implies that the pickup be digital.

If they had 14 or more different voices, all on an analog signal path, that could be *switched digitally*, that would be different. You're talking about increasing the complexity of the pickup immensely though. Regular pickups have *one* voice. If you can't coax the sounds out of them that you need, that's on you. A pickup's job is to send a signal to the amp. To me, there's really only two reasons to swap pickups in a working guitar. Level of output, and tonal balance.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

If they had 14 or more different voices, all on an analog signal path, that could be *switched digitally*, that would be different. You're talking about increasing the complexity of the pickup immensely though.

Like I said before, I don't even care that much about USB interaction, I'm merely pointing out that products like Fender Fuse create a desire in consumers for this sort of capability and flexibility, but personally, I just want more than two voicings.

Regular pickups have *one* voice. If you can't coax the sounds out of them that you need, that's on you. A pickup's job is to send a signal to the amp. To me, there's really only two reasons to swap pickups in a working guitar. Level of output, and tonal balance.

The question as to the validity of a dual voice pickup is mooted by the fact that the Fluence already has two voices. The whole premise of starting from a flat output and EQ'ing to a voice is for the sake of having more than one voice. If you only plan to ever have or use one voice, EMGs already exist, you don't need the flat output / EQ shaping.


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The clarity and response alone these pickups have is a slamdunk. Having actually played these pickups I can say even if they had one voice they would be fantastic.

Frank made this point already and the reason I skipped over it is because if you look at the Fishman Fluence promo copy (bold for emphasis):

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...=c&network=g&gclid=CLnivqKE0sACFUZgfgod-wsACg

From vintage sweetness to overwound punch, Fishman Fluence Strat pickups deliver the most sought-after Stratocaster tones. Unlike most wire-wound models, Fluence pickups manage to deliver the classic Strat sound - without hum, noise, or inductance issues. When you drop these pups into your Strat, you'll be immersed in pure, uncorrupted, euphoric tone. On top of that, Fishman Fluence Strat pickups provide you with your choice of two distinctly different voices - a clear, vintage-sounding single-coil and a muscular, overwound Hot Texas single-coil - all from the same pickups. Got questions about guitar pickups? Feel free to check out Sweetwater's Knowledge Base or give your Sales Engineer a call!

Fishman Fluence Strat Pickups at a Glance:
Active electronics deliver classic tone - without the noise
Multi-voice Fluence Core provides two distinct voices
Power supply delivers 200+ hours of use

Active electronics deliver classic tone - without the noise
We all love the sound of vintage pickups. That being said, the hum, buzz, and inductance issues leave a bit to be desired. With Fishman Fluence pickups, you can run hundreds of feet of guitar cable without any quality loss. Your volume control will operate with unprecedented smoothness, allowing you to milk useful sounds out of your guitar, even at low settings. To call these pickups "noiseless" would be a grand understatement!

Multi-voice Fluence Core provides two distinct voices
The Fluence Core provides you with the choice of two unique, selectable voices. The Fluence Strat pickup's first voice is reminiscent of a vintage single-coil. Plug into your Twin and treat yourself to that familiar sweet warmth, accented by clear and present articulation. The second voice invokes a Hot Texas single-coil, with its muscular, beefy, overwound tone. Don't worry, both voices deliver the unmistakable Stratocaster sound! The voices can be accessed by any number of standard switches or push/pull controls and can be added as a completely reversible modification to most guitars.

Power supply delivers 200+ hours of use
Offering 200+ hours of playing time, Fishman Fluence pickups also fully recharge in a matter of a few hours by using a standard USB charger. These pickups utilize either a standard 9V battery, or you can use the optional Fluence battery pack. These battery packs screw onto your guitar in place of the control or spring cover, requiring no modifications to your instrument.

Fishman Fluence Strat Pickups Features:
Active electronics deliver classic, yet noiseless, tone
Multi-voice Fluence Core provides two selectable voices
Power supply delivers 200+ hours of use and recharges in a few hours
Direct replacement design requires no permanent guitar modification

if I were to summarize this, it would be "don't worry, nothing will change". Two voices, noise free operation and long battery life are the main bullet they put forth, the primary value proposition. If touch response and clarity are really "the" strongest point of the product, let along "a" strong point, you'd think they should give this aspect of it better billing. "accented by clear and present articulation" does appear once in the copy, but it's not a bullet point, and the way it's worded makes it sound like a feature of one of the two voicings, and not the pickup as a whole. Saying a pickup is "clear and articulate" is saying nothing nowadays, nearly every pickup maker says this about nearly every one of the pickups they offer. So I see you and Frank saying one thing, and I see Fishman saying something a little different.

As you are someone who has tried these pickups personally, you are different than the majority of potential buyers of the Fishman Fluence.

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

As you are someone who has tried these pickups personally, you are different than the majority of potential buyers of the Fishman Fluence.

No, I'm not. They look like something I'd be interested in trying though.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

No, I'm not. They look like something I'd be interested in trying though.

Sorry that was directed towards Securb.

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Like I said before, I don't even care that much about USB interaction, I'm merely pointing out that products like Fender Fuse create a desire in consumers for this sort of capability and flexibility, but personally, I just want more than two voicings.

The Fuse software is used to interact with their *digital* amp / floorboard. If you're going to be tweaking a pickup in the same manner, the pickup will have to be digital. If you're changing analog signal paths, you're adding complexity to the pickup itself. Peavey did that once with an amplifier:

Even with current technology, you're not going to fit that in a package as small as a pickup.

The question as to the validity of a dual voice pickup is mooted by the fact that the Fluence already has two voices. The whole premise of starting from a flat output and EQ'ing to a voice is for the sake of having more than one voice. If you only plan to ever have or use one voice, EMGs already exist, you don't need the flat output / EQ shaping.

Yes, EMGs do exist, as does everything made by every other pickup manufacturer. They all have one "voice". Yes, with humbuckers you can run each coil separately, or combine them in parallel or series, but it's still once voice. The Blackout AHB-2 has a jumper on the bottom for output, and the GFS Redactive EQ model has a dip switch for boosting output, treble, and bass, but those are still all one voice.

if I were to summarize this, it would be "don't worry, nothing will change". Two voices, noise free operation and long battery life are the main bullet they put forth, the primary value proposition. If touch response and clarity are really "the" strongest point of the product, let along "a" strong point, you'd think they should give this aspect of it better billing. "accented by clear and present articulation" does appear once in the copy, but it's not a bullet point, and the way it's worded makes it sound like a feature of one of the two voicings, and not the pickup as a whole. Saying a pickup is "clear and articulate" is saying nothing nowadays, nearly every pickup maker says this about nearly every one of the pickups they offer. So I see you and Frank saying one thing, and I see Fishman saying something a little different.

As you are someone who has tried these pickups personally, you are different than the majority of potential buyers of the Fishman Fluence.

All I've been saying is that what you're proposing is different from what they designed. I still think you're having trouble understanding what's inside that pickup.

 

[Securb]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Sorry that was directed towards Securb.

I think I am just going to ignore you for the rest of this and every thread. You just don't get it. I don't want to argue with you for the sake of arguing. Don't think you have worn me down, this conversation has simply gotten to the point where it bears noting to offer the forum. I simply have no desire to interact with you. If anyone else has any questions about my experience playing these pickups feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer I will call one of my friends at Fishman.

As for you DreX I have asked you in the past not to PM me. New I am requesting you refrain from directing questions at me. Especially if you are not looking for answer but are only trying to bait me into childish internet sparring. I have no time or desire for these types of interactions.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

The Fuse software is used to interact with their *digital* amp / floorboard. If you're going to be tweaking a pickup in the same manner, the pickup will have to be digital. If you're changing analog signal paths, you're adding complexity to the pickup itself. Peavey did that once with an amplifier:

Even with current technology, you're not going to fit that in a package as small as a pickup.

I already quoted the marketing material where they say the Fluence puts out a flat signal that's ideal for shaping, so this sort of tweaking is the essence of what the product is. The pickups itself puts out a flat signal, I imagine it's low inductance / high peak resonance, and the voicing occurs in the form of EQ shaping in the circuitry.

The fact that it might add complexity to have more than two voicings, or allow for external manipulation of voices, isn't a show stopper in itself, unless Frank says directly "that would have made the unit cost too high", because lots of things are complex this day in age. Complexity is a given.

Suffice it to say, if they can fit two voicings, they can fit three, and probably more.

All I've been saying is that what you're proposing is different from what they designed. I still think you're having trouble understanding what's inside that pickup.

I think it's the other way around, I can't, for the life of me, understand why you'd defend two voicings on a platform designed to allow for customized response patterns. http://www.premierguitar.com/articl...an-rethinks-the-electric-guitar-pickup?page=2 read the section "From Flat to Flavorful": "Simply positioning magnets in the center of those printed circuit racetracks yields a perfectly flat-sounding pickup. That’s not a tone most players seek, but it’s a perfect platform for replicating the character of different pickups."

 

[Securb]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Even with current technology, you're not going to fit that in a package as small as a pickup.

Exactly! From Fishman.

The voices are not digital, but made possible via analog filter circuits. There is one filter per voice. In a digital system, there would be endless voicing possibilities, but in analog, you are limited to the amount of physical space allotted by the PCB.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I think I am just going to ignore you for the rest of this and every thread. You just don't get it. I don't want to argue with you for the sake of arguing. Don't think you have worn me down, this conversation has simply gotten to the point where it bears noting to offer the forum. I simply have no desire to interact with you. If anyone else has any questions about my experience playing these pickups feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer I will call one of my friends at Fishman.

As for you DreX I have asked you in the past not to PM me. New I am requesting you refrain from directing questions at me. Especially if you are not looking for answer but are only trying to bait me into childish internet sparring. I have no time or desire for these types of interactions.

That's fine, but to be clear, since you're trying to drop this at my feet, you had responded to me initially.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I think this sums it up quite nicely, and bring some much needed laughter to this thread, before boundaries of forum rules get tested.



Any time something amazing comes out, there will be people who can think of ways it would be "amazing-er" for them. That's their right. DreX, if there are things you're certain you would have done better, my sincere advice to you would be to start a company and do it. You can't use this technology, it's patented. But who knows? Maybe you'll be the guy who comes up with the next big thing.

Every company is entitled to trade secrets. You can ask me, or others here for answers as to how much power and control can fit into a pickup-sized box, but there's a limit to what I will say in order to convince you how great I think these are. If I tell you about clarity and your response is "that's what everyone says" then the discussion is fruitless unless or until you buy a set or try them in a new Gibson or have some kind of interaction with them.

What's been accomplished in this little pickup-sized box is already leaps and bounds ahead of anything that I've seen or played in my lifetime. Those who know me, my history, and my track record of speaking with integrity about projects I'm involved in know that should carry a lot of weight. If its meaningless to you, that's okay. I think where people take offense is when you're very vocal and passionate about things you haven't touched, played, etc. including how you would theoretically have changed them or done things differently, even though you've never been a part of any of the associated product development teams. I'm thick skinned. I can take it. I'm just offering advice on how people might receive the things you're saying, given the circumstances; why sometimes you're met with hostility. There is lots of talk about making this forum a less combative, more pleasant place to be right now. It's up to all of us.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Much appreciated post, Frank...thank you!

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

So I guess I'm the only one who'd be happy with these because they look really good? I'm absolutely sure they sound great...and it's been proven with vids and reviews, and they apparently are an incredibly agile and lightweight (signalwise) pickup that can trump many another pickup in or under their price point.

Look at em..

That's swank.

The Lace Alumitones have that low-power thing going for them and a very different look, but I think they underdid it in the sound and overdid it on the looks. Personally, these look like an upgraded pickup in every way AND the very much ARE upgraded sounding.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Any time something amazing comes out, there will be people who can think of ways it would be "amazing-er" for them. That's their right. DreX, if there are things you're certain you would have done better, my sincere advice to you would be to start a company and do it. You can't use this technology, it's patented. But who knows? Maybe you'll be the guy who comes up with the next big thing.

...

What's been accomplished in this little pickup-sized box is already leaps and bounds ahead of anything that I've seen or played in my lifetime. Those who know me, my history, and my track record of speaking with integrity about projects I'm involved in know that should carry a lot of weight. If its meaningless to you, that's okay. I think where people take offense is when you're very vocal and passionate about things you haven't touched, played, etc. including how you would theoretically have changed them or done things differently, even though you've never been a part of any of the associated product development teams. I'm thick skinned. I can take it. I'm just offering advice on how people might receive the things you're saying, given the circumstances; why sometimes you're met with hostility. There is lots of talk about making this forum a less combative, more pleasant place to be right now. It's up to all of us.

My comments here merely began with me asking why there are only two voicings. There's nothing wrong with wanting more of something. Then a handful of commentors show up to tell me that I should not want more, and to be happy with the status quo. The only reason anyone describes me as combative is because I don't agree with them and allow them have the last word. Well... too bad. I stay on topic, use no ad hominems and do my best to make sure my statements follow logically.

If we were all happy with the status quo, Fishman Fluences wouldn't have been invented in the first place. It's only because I think the concept is so cool that I opine about it. My critique strictly relates to the execution of the first version of the product.

If I tell you about clarity and your response is "that's what everyone says" then the discussion is fruitless unless or until you buy a set or try them in a new Gibson or have some kind of interaction with them.

I actually saw a good, reasonable explanation as to the sound difference between actives and passives here http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/cage-match-active-vs-passive-pickups/

Increasing the number of winds on a passive pickup can increase the output, but as more turns of wire are wound around the bobbin, you lose brightness while you gain lows and mids. Too many turns and you have a very powerful, very muddy sounding pickup.
...
[but with active pickups] You don’t have the trade off of more power=darker sound that passives do. You can have a clean and clear single coil sized pickup that is anything but weak

If this is the same reason the Fishman Fluence achieves a distinct "clear and present articulation" over passives, it would be worth mentioning this to substantiate these adjectives, relative to all the passive pickups out there that claim to have "clear and present articulation". Then again it might contradict the marketing copy that tells us they sound like ordinary, traditional pickups, so it's a rock and hard place.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Drex just stop typing and buy a set already.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I actually saw a good, reasonable explanation as to the sound difference between actives and passives here http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/cage-match-active-vs-passive-pickups/

"Increasing the number of winds on a passive pickup can increase the output, but as more turns of wire are wound around the bobbin, you lose brightness while you gain lows and mids. Too many turns and you have a very powerful, very muddy sounding pickup...[but with active pickups] You don’t have the trade off of more power=darker sound that passives do."

If this is the same reason the Fishman Fluence achieves a distinct "clear and present articulation" over passives, it would be worth mentioning this to substantiate these adjectives, relative to all the passive pickups out there that claim to have "clear and present articulation". Then again it might contradict the marketing copy that tells us they sound like ordinary, traditional pickups, so it's a rock and hard place.

Hey I'm really glad you brought that up. It's a great article but has almost nothing to do with Fluence. The patented coils are every bit as much a part of the magic as to why they behave the way they do. Each coil layer is linear-one on top of the other. That means unlike a typical coil, the "winding" or signal path isn't going up and down, close to the strings, further from the strings, etc. A typical electric guitar coil has a good bulk of it's wire very far away from the strings. This generates a lot of phase incoherence, resulting in a lot of smearing across the various frequency ranges. It's the reason most coils, even if you could EQ them to go from sound A to sound B, can't really deliver the same experience as pickup B because there are physical limitations.

The Fluence coil isn't so much about producing a sound that is flat, as it is a sound that is pure. Dynamically, it's more alive than anything else I've played, even Zephyrs. All of the frequencies are there, more importantly they're much more time aligned. Phase anomalies are no longer a limiting factor in the voicing. The magnetic circuit design can still impart phase anomalies via scattered and conflicting flux patterns, but that's 100% intentional. That's more about the feel differences between a PAF and an EMG with blades for example.

Nothing about Fluence's clarity and detail is based upon the old notion that you can use a weaker coil and boost it with a preamp. It's an inherent part of the coil's ability to listen to what the string is doing. It's like suggesting that you could take a microphone that is 10 feet away from an acoustic guitar, and EQ it to sound like it was 8 inches away. It's like saying you could poorly place an SM57 toward your cabinet and EQ it to sound like it was placed correctly. You can't restore phase issues with EQ. One way I could describe the Fluence coils would be "in focus". Even under tremendous amounts of gain it's totally apparent in an A/B comparison. And when people describe it as "fast" it's literally because you're shaving response time off. It's something you can feel the moment you plug in.

As for the contradictory marketing copy, I think it only seems contradictory because we're stuck with the baggage of the past. For example, suppose Apple said "The iPhone is intuitive and easy to use" it's true that every phone, Blackberry or Palm preceding the launch of the iPhone probably said the same thing. But if you are like the millions of people who found that new format to be more intuitive than your Blackberry, the marketing made sense once you had an iPhone in your hand. In time, more people will try and buy Fluence pickups. What we're saying in the marketing language, which may seem like what other people say about their pickups too, will become understood. Securb has played them and is trying to communicate what everyone who has played them has felt; that "a-ha" moment where they get it. Maybe you'll have your moment.

It's only because I think the concept is so cool that I opine about it.

Thanks man, I agree. It's easy to want more than what's in front of you, and you're correct it's that kind of innovation and tenacity that led to Fluence becoming a reality. This is only the beginning...

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I'd like to own a guitar I felt worthy of putting these in. If I manage to wrangle a Paul Reed Smith someday...

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I'm REALLY stoked about these from what you just said Frank Falbo. Is their anyway I might be able to get my hands on a set of the buckers? About how much are we (consumer) looking at for a set?

 

[ExplorersRock]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

My comments here merely began with me asking why there are only two voicings. There's nothing wrong with wanting more of something. Then a handful of commentors show up to tell me that I should not want more, and to be happy with the status quo.

I'm only speaking for myself here, but I merely asked a question. You answered. You can want anything at all, but here's how it looked to me:

You: "It only has two voicings? Well if the regular pickups only have one, two isn't enough, why not [insert number] more?! What a ripoff!"

Now before you come at me saying, "I didn't say that!" you are correct. You didn't say that. But it sure seemed like you were, because it seemed like you were putting down a brand new product before you have any direct experience with it. If it's because you want more out of a pickup that's battery powered (which I'm pretty sure you said you did) fine. But the product seems to be offering more than most battery powered pickups.

I just don't understand the negative attitude towards them is all. And like you, I am entitled to think the way I do and my post wasn't disrespectful or rude. I'm not being that way now. I just don't understand your logic unless it's your goal to find a reason to dislike these pickups before you even try them. I HATE battery powered pickups. But I'm curious. I heard the humbucker set last year at NAMM and they sounded pretty good. I'm willing to give the product a chance to impress me.

The only reason anyone describes me as combative is because I don't agree with them and allow them have the last word. Well... too bad.

Well, if you never let anyone else have the last word, that means you insist on having it. By the very definition of combative, THAT IS COMBATIVE. Besides, best way to not get into an argument with them is to ignore them. Otherwise you're just as bad as they are and contributing to the flame war. If you want to claim you aren't as bad as your detractors, then don't argue back.

I'm not being a jerk here, I'm actually trying to give some friendly advice. When people want to pick a fight on the forum with me, I typically ignore them because I have better things to do. Save your energy for better things. It works for me.

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I'm REALLY stoked about these from what you just said Frank Falbo. Is their anyway I might be able to get my hands on a set of the buckers? About how much are we (consumer) looking at for a set?

Musician's Friend has them on pre-order for $240-$260 for the modern set and $250-$260 for the classic set. (Price depends on color.)

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I don't understand why you guys cannot accept that DreX is asking valid, intelligent questions. Clearly he should have been included on the design team for these pickups. Now that Frank has had the opportunity to experience his superior intellect, maybe he'll remember to hire DreX for the next project. Just think of how awesome the outcome would be!