Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

[Lucid_Lunatic]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I'm not that crazy about everything going to the auto tuners but other than that, I'll always be a Gibson LP guy.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

^^^ better than a typical LP but not close to this :

can do it like that if you want

 

[ExplorersRock]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I agree with orpheo. Gibson has gone the route of Cadillac in the 80's and 90's. They produced great instruments and then sat back and let their name do the rest. Their innovation has been limited to ideas they think will sell (the auto tuners are the perfect example). No one asked for it and no one wants it. Then they let their QC slip. I've seen Gibson LP Custom shop guitars that have been in my techs shop because the bridge wasn't placed correctly and new slots had to be cut ON A BRAND NEW $5,000 GUITAR! If that happened over at PRS, Paul himself would blow a gasket!

Then their are their pickups. After measuring DC resistance on all of my P-ups, My SDs were within 5% just as they claim. Gibson had one that was 30% off with the average variation being 10%! And yet they charge more than SD! Less consistency has kept me away from their pickups. And if they plan on going upmarket in price, the competition there has strong QC. Suhr, PRS, etc. showcase their quality and consistency and they don't cut corners like Gibson has been known to do.

If they can't improve their product, when prices go up sales will go down!

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

You keep mentioning PRS, Dave... I think you know what you need.

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Their innovation has been limited to ideas they think will sell (the auto tuners are the perfect example). No one asked for it and no one wants it.

I doubt it. I think the primary Gibson buyer is the kind of person who thinks tuning their guitar is an unwanted burden, and a majority of customers thought it was cheesy, they would not be putting it on even more of their guitars. Gibson is mysterious and confusing, that's not the same as being completely stupid.

I've seen Gibson LP Custom shop guitars that have been in my techs shop because the bridge wasn't placed correctly and new slots had to be cut ON A BRAND NEW $5,000 GUITAR! If that happened over at PRS, Paul himself would blow a gasket!

All the evidence I've seen claiming Gibson's QC slipping is anecdotal. Nobody, afaik, has measured a bunch of Gibsons from two decades ago, down to the millimeter, and then measured a bunch of Gibson for recent years, plotted the data, and found a wider deviation in precision from a large, meaningful sample size. It's all Internet guitar forum gardening, taking a seed like "My Les Paul feels funny, I think Gibson QC is slipping", add some water, it becomes "I heard Gibson QC is slipping" then it starts fruiting: " Gibson QC is slipping" then it all comes showering down "new Gibsons are trash!"

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

All the evidence I've seen claiming Gibson's QC slipping is anecdotal.

If you went out and played 20 modern gibsons and found that 50% were not up to the standards of quality that should be expected of a a guitar of that price range, is that evidence to be discounted purely because it is anecdotal? Anecdotal evidence is not bad.

 

[chadd]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

If you went out and played 20 modern gibsons and found that 50% were not up to the standards of quality that should be expected of a a guitar of that price range, is that evidence to be discounted purely because it is anecdotal? Anecdotal evidence is not bad.

I've played hundreds of Les Pauls over the years and the new ones at $2k or more are better on average than any other period in the last three decades. At least that is my experience. I've played a couple SGJ and LPJ that I wouldn't take if you gave them to me, but the "real Gibsons" are as good as any point in my lifetime.

 

[dominus]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

All the evidence I've seen claiming Gibson's QC slipping is anecdotal. Nobody, afaik, has measured a bunch of Gibsons from two decades ago, down to the millimeter, and then measured a bunch of Gibson for recent years, plotted the data, and found a wider deviation in precision from a large, meaningful sample size.

That sounds like your kind of job.

 

[ExplorersRock]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I doubt it. I think the primary Gibson buyer is the kind of person who thinks tuning their guitar is an unwanted burden, and a majority of customers thought it was cheesy, they would not be putting it on even more of their guitars. Gibson is mysterious and confusing, that's not the same as being completely stupid.




All the evidence I've seen claiming Gibson's QC slipping is anecdotal. Nobody, afaik, has measured a bunch of Gibsons from two decades ago, down to the millimeter, and then measured a bunch of Gibson for recent years, plotted the data, and found a wider deviation in precision from a large, meaningful sample size. It's all Internet guitar forum gardening, taking a seed like "My Les Paul feels funny, I think Gibson QC is slipping", add some water, it becomes "I heard Gibson QC is slipping" then it starts fruiting: " Gibson QC is slipping" then it all comes showering down "new Gibsons are trash!"

I am the average Gibson buyer, DreX. I own three. If I recall, from previous experience with you, you are not a Gibson buyer. So deductive logic would state that I have a much better idea of what the average Gibson buyer wants than you do. I have never heard anyone, Gibson buyer or not, thinking tuning is an unwanted burden. I am disregarding your statement as nothing more than ad-hoc hypothesis based on poor logic. Sorry.

Furthermore, I find it incredibly pretentious for you to postulate what the average Gibson Buyer wants. Who are you to say what they want, and since your experience is anecdotal at best, how do you know?!

Furthermore, my latest and LAST Gibson came to me with a terrible set-up (both of my cheap-o Agile player better out of the box), a hump in the fretboard that I had to have countered by a $100 level and crown, sloppy channels cut around the backing plates, and missing paint on the neck joint! If yiu want i can post a pic of the neck jojnt, sk yiu can see it too. Not acceptable at that price. Ever!

Further.ore, my point isn't that "they made 'em better back in the day," but that if they are going to sell their guitars at the same price as PRS they need to be competitive be having the same quality. I have seen these same flaws on other Gibsons too and I haven't seen them in PRS guitars. But its all anecdotal anyway...

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

If you went out and played 20 modern gibsons and found that 50% were not up to the standards of quality that should be expected of a a guitar of that price range, is that evidence to be discounted purely because it is anecdotal? Anecdotal evidence is not bad.

You say "up to the standards", there are no "standards", it would be your own subjective expectation. With that comes the potential for outside influence and suggestion. If you pick up the guitars expecting them to be inferior, you're more likely to believe they are inferior, when perhaps otherwise you might have thought, "the guitar is fine, it's me who doesn't appreciate it."

 

[blueman335]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

You say "up to the standards", there are no "standards", it would be your own subjective expectation. With that comes the potential for outside influence and suggestion. If you pick up the guitars expecting them to be inferior, you're more likely to believe they are inferior, when perhaps otherwise you might have thought, "the guitar is fine, it's me who doesn't appreciate it."

Listen, this guy knows 10 times more about everything than we do.

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I am the average Gibson buyer, DreX. I own three.

This is the essence of mistaking anecdotal for average: "I, a single point of data, represent the average of all data".

If I recall, from previous experience with you, you are not a Gibson buyer. So deductive logic would state that I have a much better idea of what the average Gibson buyer wants than you do.

Buying something doesn't make you an expert in the market of that thing. Many people are knowledgeable about markets, such as investors, in which they are not personally invested.

I have never heard anyone, Gibson buyer or not, thinking tuning is an unwanted burden. I am disregarding your statement as nothing more than ad-hoc hypothesis based on poor logic. Sorry.

Poor logic would be to conclude that Gibson is acting against it's own interests, simply because you don't know what motivates their decisions.

Furthermore, I find it incredibly pretentious for you to postulate what the average Gibson Buyer wants. Who are you to say what they want, and since your experience is anecdotal at best, how do you know?!

The reason businesses exist is to make money. The way to make money is to sell customers what they're willing to pay for. What Gibson is selling is therefore most likely what typical Gibson customers are willing top pay for, and by virtue of that fact, indicative of what they want.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

You say "up to the standards", there are no "standards", it would be your own subjective expectation. With that comes the potential for outside influence and suggestion. If you pick up the guitars expecting them to be inferior, you're more likely to believe they are inferior, when perhaps otherwise you might have thought, "the guitar is fine, it's me who doesn't appreciate it."

There are absolutely standards. The standards are set by other guitars by other brands in the same price range. Go play 3 PRS Custom 24's and then play 3 Les Paul Standards. Maybe then you'll understand.

Listen, this guy knows 10 times more about everything than we do.

Put a sock in it you old fart.

 

[DreX]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

There are absolutely standards. The standards are set by other guitars by other brands in the same price range. Go play 3 PRS Custom 24's and then play 3 Les Paul Standards. Maybe then you'll understand.

I think there was another laborious thread where we debated objective versus subjective aspects of quality, nobody likes jagged fret ends, for example, but it's easy to identify that your criteria subjective when you have to say "Go play ABC and then play XYZ. Maybe then you'll understand", it's readily obvious that your criteria is subjective. Related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

 

[voggin]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I still find this whole thing weird. An article suggests a huge price hike for next year's guitars, yet there's nothing on Gibson's webpage. The 29% or whatever roughly translates to what used to be the difference between MSRP and MAP. Last year, Gibson switched to MAP. Maybe they are switching back to MSRP, or Amazon (the only retailer that has posted prices, which they have taken down) got their arithmetic wrong.

In any event, I'm going to wait to see an actual, real-world price before I pass judgement. I'd also like to see one of those new nuts. They look interesting. I wonder if they would make tuning better with a Bigsby or other trem. Especially with locking tuners. I've also always wanted a gold top deluxe: when I was a kid, I used to drool over one in the window of a shop. Would have been a 79 or 80. Guy at the store let me play it. I remember picking it up (I was 11 or 12 at the time) and thinking "God this thing is heavy!". It was probably a pancake Norlin, although I wouldn't have noticed how it was built back then. To me at the time, that was a "proper" guitar, with the gold paint and the natural back and neck.

Funny how those early impressions stick with you. Even after my superstrat and strat periods, I still had that Les Paul meme in my brain!

 

[SFW]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

When I started playing guitar in 1987, a Les Paul Standard went for $800ish at my LGS. I currently own a Standard and a Classic. I've got Les Pauls covered. There will still be people who are willing to pay whatever price Gibson demands. That's just the way things go. I won't be one of those people.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I don't care!!

 

[chadd]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

When I started playing guitar in 1987, a Les Paul Standard went for $800ish at my LGS. I currently own a Standard and a Classic. I've got Les Pauls covered. There will still be people who are willing to pay whatever price Gibson demands. That's just the way things go. I won't be one of those people.

I started buying Les Pauls in the early 90s when you could get a Norlin Deluxe for $300. hell, I still have one of them.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

I own 2 Les Pauls, 2 SGs, 2 Melody Makers and 2 Gibson Acoustics.

And in response to the 'information' I gained from this thread...

 

[blueman335]

Re: Just saw this: Gibson cutting production/raising prices/modifying stuff

Put a sock in it you old fart.

Insights and well thought-out musings like this are what keep members coming back. It must be tough being an intellectual and having to maintain lofty standards like the above prose. I don't know how you do it. You certainly are the better man here. I have been humbled.