Music Theory Questions

cato

New member
Anyone can post questions here so multiple topics can be discussed.
regarding people studying/learning guitar by formal, orthodox theory with sheet music-reading from the very beginning: how does this differ from the study of theory with the CAGED arpeggio system using fretboard diagrams? from the fundamentals to the most advanced theory the study would be no different using sheet music as the vehicle; but is there a system that similarly uses visualization of shifting, overlapping, and repeating patterns of arpeggios/shapes - on sheet music - for facilitating learning all concepts all over the fretboard?
thanks!
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

As someone who is self taught and then learned the theory, I find that I use a lot of weird fingerlings for expanded chords. For example, the only note that should be fretted in an Em7 is the 2nd fret B on the A string, but I like to keep the standard Em shape and then add the 3rd feet D on the B string instead.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

yeah, it sounds airy to ring out all six strings with that second b7th octave, above the b3rd octave/10th.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

There is no magic bullet, no substitute for hard work. Methods are great for encapsulating a graduated study from beginner through virtuouso but ultimately it will be your time spent on the the guitar and the time spent training your ears that will make the biggest impact. Short cuts make long delays, to paraphrase Mr Tolkien.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

I learned theory by going to college for it, and not geared toward a specific instrument, so I don't use the CAGED system on guitar at all. I look at the fretboard as a series of possibilities, not positions with fingerings.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

Learning "guitar theory" without learning true music theory is like learning Physics without Calculus. It requires a lot of shortcuts and generalization ls to make it work. (CAGED, boxes, patterns, etc.) That's ok though, as nearly all guitarists are playing folk/popular music, not classical or pure jazz. Even though I've learned a great deal of pure theory in school, when I play guitar I actually use the shortcuts as it supports the types of music I play. By moving shapes around the fretboard you can create chords and sounds that are interesting and inspiring, and you can determine the name after you like the way it sounds. Again, very folk music approach, but the music is simple in the big picture.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

thanks for the responses everyone.

my learning process for many years was exclusively sitting in front of a stereo and meticulously learning my favorite music - many different instruments - with very incidental learning of theory and music reading. recently i started learning theory more deeply - not specific to guitar - and finally looked at the CAGED thing, which i had ignored for years, and immediately recognized all the overlapping repeating shapes.

i filed it away as a novelty/curiosity since there's no utility in it for me at this point, but it prompted my first - admittedly inconsequential - question about formal/orthodox learning : is there an analogous visual system for facilitating learning all these say four basic arpeggios (thus chords/scales/modes) all over the fretboard - or on piano - but via sheet music vs. fretboard diagrams? or do orthodox learners just learn theory and reading without such visual aids, other than the recognition of patterns/modes/progressions in sheet music that is a natural consequence of learning to read music?

i was just curious.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

CAGED only gives you five positions. There are always 12 ways of doing things on a guitar fretboard. Still, CAGED is a pretty awesome jumping off point for covering the whole board and will go a long way to being able to express yourself freely in different harmonic contexts.
The next step is to learn all the types of chords and extensions and arpeggiate them in all the positions, then start working on chord progressions to improvise over.
It just keeps going from there. It is kinda like finding a stream and following it down to a river, and then to the ocean. Things just keep expanding.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

yeah gibson, i sure see what you mean. i'm looking into the most advanced implications of the CAGED concept and even that is familiar in that i recognize it from playing/copying/learning other people's music, but it's humbling to think of people knowing it intimately and intuitively such that they could use the concepts to create music and improv/solo over it.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

There are three stages to this. I recommend developing your ear FIRST. The tab revolution is the worst damn thing that ever happened to guitar players... I think it was better when the only way to learn original guitar parts was from the recordings. I was only spared because I was cheap... there was no internet in 1988 (when I started playing at age 14) and I didn't have money for magazines or tab books. Throw away your tab and start learning stuff off of records. That's stage 1.

Stage 2: Learn theory independent of your guitar. Gain a thorough knowledge of how western music works. Learn ALL of it. If you can't resolve a German 6th chord correctly... on paper... you're not there.

Stage 3: apply said theory to shapes on your guitar. The guitar is a shape-based instrument, which gives us an enormous advantage over most others. I find the CAGED system quite limiting to be honest; there are much more useful ways to think about the fretboard but if you want details you have to take lessons from me...
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

There are three stages to this. I recommend developing your ear FIRST.
Semi-agree; ear training and theory training and technique training go hand and hand; they are synchronous and symbiotic, not mutually exclusive.

The tab revolution is the worst damn thing that ever happened to guitar players... I think it was better when the only way to learn original guitar parts was from the recordings.
Disagree. Before what we call notation today was codified there was essentially a TAB system. It still exists in may other musical forms as well.

Learn theory independent of your guitar. Gain a thorough knowledge of how western music works.
Semi-agree. Any good method should apply to any instrument.

Learn ALL of it.
Disagree, but only because this is not possible unless you spend many years in school. I have nothing against learning more than you will use, but you can't learn all of it; it's simply not possible for most folks.

If you can't resolve a German 6th chord correctly... on paper... you're not there.
I have no idea what this even means.

apply said theory to shapes on your guitar.
Disagree.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

Music theory was best explained to me like this. It teaches you the fundamental rules of music to give you a baseline. As you grow you will break those rules, theory gives you an explanation for why the rule was broken and how to intelligently apply it again.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

Semi-agree; ear training and theory training and technique training go hand and hand; they are synchronous and symbiotic, not mutually exclusive.


Disagree. Before what we call notation today was codified there was essentially a TAB system. It still exists in may other musical forms as well.


Semi-agree. Any good method should apply to any instrument.


Disagree, but only because this is not possible unless you spend many years in school. I have nothing against learning more than you will use, but you can't learn all of it; it's simply not possible for most folks.


I have no idea what this even means.


Disagree.

1) Few beginners learn theory right away. However, if your intent is to WORK in popular music you should right from the beginning start learning songs by playing along with recordings. If you can't follow a chord progression by ear in realtime, or play back a melody that I play to you, you're useless in the real world.

2) Yes, tab goes back centuries. However it wasn't till the 80s that the widespread availability of original guitar parts in tab form gave guitar players an excuse to not develop their ears.

3) If you need your instrument when talking about theory, you don't fully understand the theory.

4) You don't have to go to school to learn all about theory. I did go to school and already knew 90% of what they taught.

5) Then you still have work to do.

6) Why disagree?
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

5) Then you still have work to do.

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Re: Music Theory Questions

I took a couple of music theory courses when I was in college (many, many years ago) and I've found that knowledge to be helpful in some ways with guitar and not helpful in others. I think the "not-helpful" part comes from the fact that the concepts were taught using a piano keyboard as a reference. In itself, that's a good thing because a piano is laid out in a way that is very easy to understand. Guitar however is not laid out as simply for understanding notes and chords. As you move from string to string the pattern changes when you reach the "B" string and it becomes easy to get lost.

I've never bothered looking into the history of how the standard tuning of a guitar was derived, but my gut tells me that it's set up for patterns of fingerings which are relatively easy to grab. This makes (in my opinion) the guitar a difficult instrument to play in terms of traditional music theory. Instead, it seems to be designed for simpler "music" notation like chord charts (lyrics with chords written above the words). I personally find tablature a bit difficult to read, but then too I only use it for a point of reference to learn something that then gets memorized. Nonetheless, tablature is much easier to follow for guitar than standard sheet music.

That being said, there were some very handy things I got out of my music theory classes for guitar... namely understanding the concepts of music keys, the notes and chords in them, and the four basic chord structures (major, minor, augmented, and diminished). From there you start understanding basic additional notes that can be added to the chords (7ths, 9ths, 4ths, etc.). I find this to be invaluable for when I see a chord I don't recognize... but I can still figure out how to play it based on the notes that should be there. Chords can be played as arpeggios as well, which turn into scales (once you add the appropriate passing notes for the key you're in).

In short, I've found music theory to be VERY helpful for guitar in terms of helping me to understand what I'm playing and why it works, but I personally have found it to be a bit too complicated for actually PLAYING a guitar.

Learning as much theory as possible is a great goal, and I would encourage any musician who is interested to follow it as far as they want. At the same time, though, it's not the only way to be a good musician. There are many out there who are what I would call "theory snobs." These are the people who look down on those of us who don't have the gigantic amount of knowledge they possess, and then belittle us with attempts to make us look stupid. Just don't become one of those people... the reason why none of us knows how to resolve a German 6th is that nobody cares! I've been a musician for over 30 years and have yet to encounter one. [emoji6]


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Re: Music Theory Questions

I think in a modern context learning to read is only going to improve your employment prospects, and your communication skills with other musicians. Learn as much as you can, as it is hard to write horn charts and choir parts if you are an illiterate musician. Reading isn't the end all-be all, but it is important in broadening skills (and it really isn't that hard). Learn by ear, learn tab (as it out-numbers notation for guitarists by about 100x in guitar music), and learn anything you can. You need all the skills you can get to avoid a lifetime of terrible jobs until you make it big. I never look at something I don't understand and say "I don't need to know that".
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

1) Few beginners learn theory right away. However, if your intent is to WORK in popular music you should right from the beginning start learning songs by playing along with recordings. If you can't follow a chord progression by ear in realtime, or play back a melody that I play to you, you're useless in the real world.

There's nothing wrong with initially learning from tabs or chord charts. When I started, I had no idea what a "G" chord sounded like. But I knew I needed it to play Wonderwall. I now know what a G chord is and the notes involved in it, in addition to the intervals associated.

3) If you need your instrument when talking about theory, you don't fully understand the theory.

If you can understand theory without any form of aid, then good for you, but most people can better associate the theory when they have a point of reference.

4) You don't have to go to school to learn all about theory. I did go to school and already knew 90% of what they taught.

Good for you. I did too in college, but only because I took theory in high school.

5) Then you still have work to do.

What if I don't care about resolving a Germanic 6th chord (essential a diminished chord with an added minor sixth; example C-Eb-F# (enharmonically a diminished fifth)- Ab)? It's just a way for someone to seem better than everyone else.

6) Why disagree?

Because there's not just one way to do it. I have a professor at school who toured with John Mellancamp briefly (Dave is also credited on bass and guitar on Mellancamp's first album). Dave is knows a ton of theory and he teaches college students (Blues ensemble is a great time). John Mellancamp knows about 12 chords on guitar and is world famous. Theory doesn't mean anything. What matters is whether or not you can use that theory to make music people want to hear. You can resolve all the Germanic sixth chords that you want, but if nobody listens to your music, then who gives a ****?
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

I think in a modern context learning to read is only going to improve your employment prospects, and your communication skills with other musicians. Learn as much as you can, as it is hard to write horn charts and choir parts if you are an illiterate musician. Reading isn't the end all-be all, but it is important in broadening skills (and it really isn't that hard). Learn by ear, learn tab (as it out-numbers notation for guitarists by about 100x in guitar music), and learn anything you can. You need all the skills you can get to avoid a lifetime of terrible jobs until you make it big. I never look at something I don't understand and say "I don't need to know that".

This is only speaking about someone who intends to support themselves on music alone. As someone studying audio engineering, yeah, knowing theory is important because it can allow me to talk to musicians better, but knowing theory isn't important for the guy who just wants to play along to their favorite songs in their bedroom.
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

Anyone can post questions here so multiple topics can be discussed.
regarding people studying/learning guitar by formal, orthodox theory with sheet music-reading from the very beginning: how does this differ from the study of theory with the CAGED arpeggio system using fretboard diagrams? from the fundamentals to the most advanced theory the study would be no different using sheet music as the vehicle; but is there a system that similarly uses visualization of shifting, overlapping, and repeating patterns of arpeggios/shapes - on sheet music - for facilitating learning all concepts all over the fretboard?
thanks!

I studied classical guitar at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. The only system I learned was where all the notes on the musical staff were located on the fretboard. When I see things like CAGED, I can't help but think of the old quote, "Don't learn the tricks of the trade. Learn the trade."
 
Re: Music Theory Questions

This is a blanket response to a number of the above comments... I think a lot of you don't really grasp what a thorough internalization of theory really means. It's the ability to play anything over any chord progression in any key on demand.

I've been working in this business for a long time, and not all of us get to be John Mellencamp. The only way you get away with only knowing 12 chords is if you get to tour and record playing songs you wrote all the time. For the rest us the work is catch as catch can, and we don't often get to choose. I'm guessing lots of people here can make the rock in a credible fashion, but can you sit in with a jazz combo armed with nothing but your copy of the real book, in a setting where the bandleader sometimes calls the tune in a key other than the one written? Could you hold down the groove in a funk setting? Can you do a 4 set bar show as the primary soloist in a blues band and play with enough variety that the whole night doesn't sound like one long shuffle in A... even though it is? Could you go out on the road with a small-time recording artist you never heard of before given nothing but 12 hours notice and a tape of their last show? Can you play an hour of classical repertoire for a highbrow event? Could you scribble out a string score at a recording session?

When a student tells me they just wanna play pop tunes from tab my question is always the same: do you wanna play, or do you wanna work?
 
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