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  • #46
    Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Originally posted by Jacew View Post
    So what it is made of ?
    As spec’d, most likely.
    Originally posted by LesStrat
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Originally posted by JOLLY
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Ibanez wood fraud

      The problem is that the customer and the manufacturer have different definitions for the term mahogany. When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.
      What’s funnier than putting up roadblocks to stop the advance of someone who’s running away from you at four hundred miles an hour?

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      • #48
        Re: Ibanez wood fraud

        Originally posted by TMD View Post
        The problem is that the customer and the manufacturer have different definitions for the term mahogany. When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.
        Caveat emptor

        Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

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        • #49
          Re: Ibanez wood fraud

          Originally posted by Demanic View Post
          Caveat emptor

          Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk
          That's often said in defense of bad actors in business. I'd like to see a little effort from guitar companies to educate consumers about what they mean by "mahogany" and other terms. I'd like to see some glam shots of unfinished bodies and necks, featured right along with the same guitar pics we always see. If mahogany can mean any of a number of species, if the companies are acting in good faith and have nothing to hide, maybe they should stop hiding it.
          Last edited by TMD; 05-22-2020, 04:00 PM.
          What’s funnier than putting up roadblocks to stop the advance of someone who’s running away from you at four hundred miles an hour?

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Ibanez wood fraud

            ^ Most people don't want to be educated in such matters......and from the debacle we've seen here, guitar players in general would be horrified because they only want to stir up a fuss that is wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar. This is the forum equivalent of clickbait.

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            • #51
              Re: Ibanez wood fraud

              Maybe if it's "wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar," then they could stop using those relatively meaningless buzzwords to sell their products. It seems to me that guitar players are (1) kept in the dark, (2) blamed for the situation, and (3) denied agency to do anything about it. I am not unsympathetic to the situation of the guitar companies and the factories, but there has to be some balance. If we're expected to let them do whatever they want in regards to building and marketing guitars, maybe we should know a little more about those things. That they're doing.
              What’s funnier than putting up roadblocks to stop the advance of someone who’s running away from you at four hundred miles an hour?

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                Originally posted by TMD View Post
                When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.
                It's not communication, it's marketing.
                Originally posted by crusty philtrum
                And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

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                • #53
                  Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                  Originally posted by dystrust View Post
                  It's not communication, it's marketing.
                  Some might call it lying. If they would just be a little more transparent, this could all be avoided. When information isn't forthcoming, we have to cling to what we can find. I am going to make buying decisions based on things like this.
                  What’s funnier than putting up roadblocks to stop the advance of someone who’s running away from you at four hundred miles an hour?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                    Just buy from companies that don't do that, or at least don't appear to do that. Send them a message and let them know why you don't buy their products.
                    Dave, Ambassador/Writer/Artist for Seymour Duncan

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                      Originally posted by TMD View Post
                      Some might call it lying. If they would just be a little more transparent, this could all be avoided. When information isn't forthcoming, we have to cling to what we can find. I am going to make buying decisions based on things like this.
                      That's what "Caveat emptor" means.

                      Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                        They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

                        It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

                        SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

                        In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

                        At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

                        For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

                        Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

                        You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.
                        Last edited by ItsaBass; 05-22-2020, 07:32 PM.
                        Originally posted by LesStrat
                        Yogi Berra was correct.
                        Originally posted by JOLLY
                        I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                          We could keep talking in circles a while longer; that's always cool.
                          What’s funnier than putting up roadblocks to stop the advance of someone who’s running away from you at four hundred miles an hour?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                            I like chocolate ice cream
                            All chocolate ice cream doesn't taste the same
                            Sometimes it has less of the good stuff
                            And more MSG

                            I just dont keep buying the stuff I don't like
                            Just to get the bucket it comes in
                            That's stupid
                            EHD
                            Just here surfing Guitar Pron
                            RG2EX1 w/ SD hot-rodded pickups / RG4EXFM1 w/ Carvin S22j/b + FVN middle
                            SR500 / Martin 000CE-1/Epiphone Hummingbird
                            Epiphone Florentine with OEM Probuckers
                            Ehdwuld branded Blue semi hollow custom with JB/Jazz
                            Reptile Green Gibson Custom Studio / Aqua Dean Shire semi hollow with piezo
                            Carvin Belair / Laney GC80A Acoustic Amp (a gift from Guitar Player Mag)
                            GNX3000 (yea I'm a modeler)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                              Originally posted by ItsaBass View Post
                              They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

                              It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

                              SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

                              In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

                              At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

                              For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

                              Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

                              You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.
                              Hints of Ayn?..

                              Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Ibanez wood fraud

                                Professor at university where I went used to use Pseudotsuga Menziesii as example of this:

                                Pseudotsuga means pseudo-hemlock, its common name is Douglas fir, in finnish it's Douglas spruce and when it's processed, wood sold is Oregon pine... It is really none of those, but it's own genus completely.

                                Point is if they're selling Agathis as mahogany, it's very deliberate misleading, as both are commonly used woods in instruments by the name, and mahogany simply is better selling material. I think arguing over whether that's "lying", "misleading" or "fraud" is pointless semantics. We all know by know in thread what's going on.

                                Of course it could legtitly some other species commonly sold as mahogany, and I, for one, would be interested to know what?
                                "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
                                Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

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