Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

guitarrob said:
I don't think it is a "world governance" thing, but if you are going to do business with other countries then you have to take their export laws into account or else don't do business with them.
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Do the these countries reciprocate our environmental protection policies?
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

But Indian laws, in and of themselves and their determination of what is "finished" or "raw" has no jurisdiction in the United States. If customs missed the shipment it's on them. This is Constitutional violation of Gibson's property rights. If they attained goods that are illegal IN INDIA, that is the fault of the supplier (in Germany?) and Gibson likely bought what was available and it is not their responsibility to dot the i's and cross the t's, it is the supplier's responsibility.

This situation proves the inevitability of "World Governance" and the loss of sovereignty of nations. "International Environmental Laws" will spell the end of national sovereignty, as soon as we are paying taxes on China's carbon emissions... since we import so many of their goods. It's coming.
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I'm having a hard time seeing it from your point of view. From what I gather from reading through (most of) the affidavit, we (USA) have an agreement with India (and other countries) as to the laws and rules of importing/exporting goods. If the USA agrees to abide by these rules, then we also have a duty to uphold them.

I believe a comparison could be drawn between this situation and how certain businesses interact with each other. There are rules- such as protected territories and MAP pricing- that are agreed to by "the industry" that all businesses involved abide by. When a business chooses to not follow the rules, they can be "punished".

Anyway you cut it, it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Personally, I'm kind of surprised that Luthier's Merc. is involved. They're a great company overall.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Edgecrusher said:
Not necessarily but it is a legitimate question. I mean if we are enforcing theirs shouldn't they be enforcing ours?
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The funny thing would be if India didn't even give a sh*t about the export of rosewood. It's not the first time a government has chosen to cease enforcing a law because it's easier than re-writing it... in which case they probably wouldn't expect some foreign government to f*ck things up by enforcing their own laws on them.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

In the future they should get their wood from my supplier, Smiling Bob. LOL
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

some_dude said:
The funny thing would be if India didn't even give a sh*t about the export of rosewood. It's not the first time a government has chosen to cease enforcing a law because it's easier than re-writing it... in which case they probably wouldn't expect some foreign government to f*ck things up by enforcing their own laws on them.
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^^ The funny thing is that people on this forum are still "blaming" India even though there isn´t a single link in any thread on any forum leading to a news report that mentions India as a country nor does this species of tree even grow there to begin with.....

Indian Rosewood is a proper name for a specific species of tree, Dalbergia latifolia, which can be found in the tropical Americas, southeast Asia, some parts of africa, and Madagascar.

It is madagascan ebony and rosewood that is of questionable nature. Our singalese friends have absolutely zero to do with this situation ;)
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

I got a boner looking at my cousin one time. Are the feds gonna raid my pants for illegal wood?
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
^^ The funny thing is that people on this forum are still "blaming" India even though there isn´t a single link in any thread on any forum leading to a news report that mentions India as a country nor does this species of tree even grow there to begin with.....

Indian Rosewood is a proper name for a specific species of tree, Dalbergia latifolia, which can be found in the tropical Americas, southeast Asia, some parts of africa, and Madagascar.

It is madagascan ebony and rosewood that is of questionable nature. Our singalese friends have absolutely zero to do with this situation ;)
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..then what's funny is why the spokesperson from Gibson mentioned India and their law about exporting finished and unfinished rosewood fingerboards. Not sure why he would mention it if it had no bearing on the case at all. Strange.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Edgecrusher said:
Not necessarily but it is a legitimate question. I mean if we are enforcing theirs shouldn't they be enforcing ours?
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A significant economic component of off shoring American manufacturing. The Gibson raid is merely a symptom.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

guitarrob said:
..then what's funny is why the spokesperson from Gibson mentioned India and their law about exporting finished and unfinished rosewood fingerboards. Not sure why he would mention it if it had no bearing on the case at all. Strange.
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Somewhat curious, yes.

However, statistically most US citizens can´t even name all 50 states, many don´t even know which ones they share borders with... so I´m not sure how accurate their geographic knowledge of places 15000 miles away should be....

Not saying it´s the case, but seems plausible. ;)
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
^^ The funny thing is that people on this forum are still "blaming" India even though there isn´t a single link in any thread on any forum leading to a news report that mentions India as a country nor does this species of tree even grow there to begin with.....

Indian Rosewood is a proper name for a specific species of tree, Dalbergia latifolia, which can be found in the tropical Americas, southeast Asia, some parts of africa, and Madagascar.

It is madagascan ebony and rosewood that is of questionable nature. Our singalese friends have absolutely zero to do with this situation ;)
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Indian rosewood is also harvested in southeast India. If you click on the Dalbergia latifolia hotlink in the article you quoted you'll see that.

The Affidavit posted earlier also mentions India.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
After reading the affadavit, it would appear that Gibson (likely unknowingly, but that is at this time not yetr relevant) purchased illegal wood through Luthiers Mercantile, more specifically fretboard blanks (which are illegal to export from india) declared as veneers. That means potential fraud charges as well....
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That is what I got out of reading the affadavit also
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

What a ****ing mess. The whole deal with confiscating my guitars has effectively curbed my GAS, so I guess that's a good thing.

Jesus Christ.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

some_dude said:
Indian rosewood is also harvested in southeast India. If you click on the Dalbergia latifolia hotlink in the article you quoted you'll see that.

The Affidavit posted earlier also mentions India.
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After reviewing all the available information again, I would like to partially retract my statement, as it truly does appear that this is actually coming from BOTH India and Madagascar, even though India IIRC has comparatively small forests but does not export raw wood (which is why I omitted them earlier, as their stock is in that situation irrelevant). It does appear however that the world has once again changed faster than I have and that at least for a time India was exporting raw lumber.

Sorry for any misunderstandings. :beerchug:

*edit* What actually just dawned on me that surprises me even more: Fingerboard blanks?

Most small shops I know cut their fretboards themselves... The economist in me doesn´t know the exact scale of Gibson´s operations, but is somewhat surprised at this fact, the reasoning from my side being that while sawing your own may produce more waste (not every piece is good enough, but then again there´s also Epi, Valley Arts and other subsidiaries to "feed").....but methinks the costs including a bandsaw and 2 operators would have long paid for themselves by buying cheaper raw timber instead of cut lumber.... :eek13:
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
Sorry for any misunderstandings. :beerchug:
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No problem.
Zerberus said:
*edit* What actually just dawned on me that surprises me even more: Fingerboard blanks?

Most small shops I know cut their fretboards themselves... The economist in me doesn´t know the exact scale of Gibson´s operations, but is somewhat surprised at this fact, the reasoning from my side being that while sawing your own may produce more waste (not every piece is good enough, but then again there´s also Epi, Valley Arts and other subsidiaries to "feed").....but methinks the costs including a bandsaw and 2 operators would have long paid for themselves by buying cheaper raw timber instead of cut lumber.... :eek13:
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Well the didn't say the saw the blanks themselves. I think that is also part of the trouble. The export law basically states that unless the wood is a certain size under 6mm IIRC, the peice has to be finished by workers in India if this wood is being exported from their country. If they are under 6mm, then you can say they are veneers, which I think is also part of the case declaring them as veneers and not fretboards.

If the work is not done there then this wood is not legal to export or something along those lines. So basically, to use this wood for their fretboards they have to have the work done over in India. Which is difficult if you want to have a Made in the USA sticker on the guitar.

Now, at what point the peices are considered finished is not know. Do they mean their workers just have to saw to rough dimensions or they have to make the blanks basically look like rough fingerboards.
Big freakin' mess of red tape just to get some Indian rosewood fretboards!
I might not be understanding the situation properly.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Norlin: Brazillian Rosewood, Honduran Mahogany! Ahhhh - the GOOD old days!
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

formula73 said:
LOL what about when I'm flying back from wherever and my 73 is confiscated???:banghead:
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Why would they confiscate your 1973 LP? However, I think you are joking around.
I think they said to Gibson they cannot send out anymore guitars until the situation is resolved which is pretty crappy really. As they have not been tried or convicted of anything so the GOV has zero right to hurt their business.
 
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