NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

MetalManiac said:
I didn't have an opinion. Just facts. If someone is of the opinion my facts are erroneous..oh well.
Click to expand...

I think you need to pick up a dictionary and look up the words "Opinion" and "Facts".

A fact is: My Agile has a brown finish. It is made of mahogany. It has 22 frets. It has two humbuckers, etc, etc.

An opinion is: Agiles are sh#$ compared to my Gibsons.

Etc, etc. Not a hard distinction.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

IanBallard said:
I think you need to pick up a dictionary
Click to expand...

..and i think you need to dick up a pictionary.
\
All i stated were facts as i observed them, and then offered them and comparisons to be contrasted with the Gibson.
I treaded lightly, sensing the volatile nature of the association, even offering reconciliations that i enjoyed and admired the Agile..yet it still wasnt enuf for you
flamethrowers.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Eh, boy…
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

There's nothing wrong with having opinions and every. single. forum. is full of opinions. Also, I think it's good to have a strong opinion about comparing a guitar that people assert as being "OMFG AWESOME AND TEH CHEAPS!" compared to a legendary and classic instrument it's designed to emulate. But we also have to consider that musicians have vastly different ideas of what is good, is worth their money and everybody has a very subjective view of value. I personally think it's absurd to pay $10,000 MORE for a guitar just because it has a signature on it (Seriously... Gibson actually upcharges a Les Paul $10,000 for nothing more than it being signed by some washed up old rock star), but I do find it, on a subjective basis, quite normal for a (sort of) hand-made instrument to be upward of $5000. I was quoted out-of-context about "comparing" an Agile to a regular, production quality Les Paul, after fairly extensive modifications. OK, maybe I'm wrong. I've played quite a few Lesters, SG's, 335's, etc and I'm not into Gibsons... they feel clunky and weird. I probably won't buy an Agile either because they are big, clunky Gibson wannabes. So you have heavy clunky guitar A that is $3000 and heavy clunky guitar B that is $600. One is made by Americans making over $10/hour and the other is made by Koreans making that much a week probably. It's pretty obvious which one will be superior in most respects. However, how superior it is... is purely subjective and purely an opinion.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

IanBallard said:
I was quoted out-of-context about "comparing" an Agile to a regular, production quality Les Paul, after fairly extensive modifications.
Click to expand...

I think people read a lot into the phrase "compares to". They think it means "is the same", or that you're slyly implying there's little or no difference. You could "compare" a Fender Strat to a G&L, and you could "compare" Demi Lovato to Imogen Heap, but what are you really saying when you slip that phrase in there? I think it sets the discussion up for a lack of precision.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

I just wanted to let everybody know that I just bought a Fiero. I put a Lamborghini kit on it. It is absolutely fantastic. I cannot believe all of the people that actually pay $250,000 or so for the real Lamborghinis. I've got a about $15,000 invested in mine, and it's just as good, if not better than a real Lambroghini, and I'm going to keep on telling myself that until it becomes true. People trip me out. We all know that folks that actually buy real Lamborghinis only do it to stroke their ego and to compensate for something else. It has nothing to do with the actual quality of the car itself. I'm laughing all the way to the bank with my fake wannabe Lamborghini. I'm awesome!!
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

I've been ignoring this thread since about post three. But it hasn't gone away. Some very interesting stuff. A few comments:

#1 cognitive Dissonance / Funadamental Attribution Error - I have a PhD and don't feel the need to use those words most days. Well said, and pretty much in context. Now never use those words in a guitar thread again. Thank you, Dr. Aceman.

#2 That Norlin stuff was getting close to having me unleash the fury. 75LP covered it nicely, and the OP of that post did put the disclaimer in. Good job.

#3 I have el cheapo's and vintage LP's. I'm a pretty objective dude IMO. I have to agree. The El cheapo can come close, but is NOT of the quality of the Gibson. And as stated - the BEST el cheapo is close o the WORST Gibson.

#4 You can't just compare guitars wholesale. Thinks like neck size/shape are PREFERENCES and everyone's preference is different. I don't like shreddy flat wide thin necks - but I would venture to say that I had a Yamaha that would have had Ibanez guys messing their pants. Even I thought it was awesome in an objective way. But I didn't prefer it to a meaty LP neck.

#5 Sound is also a semi-preference. Sound of the wood is the real question. Any guitar may or may not come with pickups that give you an eargasm. But I am not accepting that criticism of a guitar from ANYONE hanging out here. In Dean-guitar land - sure. they are all about the graphics and the bodyshape etc...more guitars is more guitars. Here - EVERYONE owns an iron. SO the only REAL comparison is of the general sound of the pups. Even a Gibson Custom vs a standard is like comparing a PG to a Distortion. Can't do it.

#5 Build quality is a very reasonable comparison. But there are a ton of factors: Fit, finish, accuracy, precision, tuners, nut, frets, bridge, binding etc, etc...

At the end of the day, any model runs a range. 100 of the same model will produce a proportion of dogs and some real gems. But, find ten of those 100 that represent the TYPICAL member of the breed, and compare them. Gibson will almost always win. It would be a RARE loss. And the winner wouldn't be Agile.

Where does Gibson really lose? IMO it's in the PRICE/PERFORMANCE ratio. At the end of the day, for the price Gibson charges, there should be nothing but fantastic tone, with perfect build. They fail miserably at that.

When it comes to price/performance...a LOT of guitars make the decision to buy Gibson just ridiculous. My Kaman and Epi LP's are good guitars period. And with duncan and DiMarzio pups they sound good. My Dean Cadillac Select, also with Duncans (PG/Custom) is really close to my Gibsons. Considering the Dean was $300 (plus pickups) - is the Les Paul THAT much better? Oh hell no. But are the Les Paul's better...besides just preferences? I'd say yes.

All in all, the Gibson is a better guitar - assuming it meets your preferences. And a High end ESP, Dean, etc...for the same price is ALSO a better guitar. More of those will be more perfect than the similar priced Gibson. One hundred USA customs in those lines will probably yield 100 perfect axes. Gibson...not so much. There won't be 50 dogs. But 100 won't pass muster for that dollar tag in most guitarists opinion.

Jolly - Did you really Lambo up a Fiero? That's awesome!

This has been a TORPEDO OF TRUTH
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

JOLLY said:
I just wanted to let everybody know that I just bought a Fiero. I put a Lamborghini kit on it. .............I'm awesome!!
Click to expand...

No, your'e just being an a$$ by using an absolutely ridiculous analogy.

You want to know how you, et al, sound when you stroke your epeen regarding your "real" guitars? Exactly like this:

Why would you buy four average Gibson Standards when you could have bought one REAL guitar like a Custom Shop Historic Reissue VOS 59 Burst? Your off the rack, average, production Standards and Classics are nothing compared to the quality and tone of a REAL Gibson!!! Everyone knows the quality and tone of the production models doesn't compare to the Custom Shop offerings. If you want a guitar made by some minimum wage, disgruntled assembly line worker then fine for you but it will never compare to a guitar made by a master luthier in the Custom Shop and once you've played one you'll think those Standards are just toys.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Aceman said:
Where does Gibson really lose? IMO it's in the PRICE/PERFORMANCE ratio. At the end of the day, for the price Gibson charges, there should be nothing but fantastic tone, with perfect build. They fail miserably at that.
Click to expand...

I think that's point here. There are some reasonably priced Gibsons for new buyers and sometimes you score bigtime for used ones, but they are still out of the range for most musicians who aren't heavy-giggin pros with high income to low obligation ratios of expenses. I mean, a Standard production LP is reasonable enough... but how can you justify a Jimmy Page #2 being $8000 and upcharging it to $18000 just for a signature? That's insanity and that's one reason Gibson draws so much ire from a lot of players. Are you really getting what you pay for with a top-shelf Gibson? Of course I feel the same way about Fender CS guitars too! Especially Fender because any monkey with a screwdriver can slap a neck on a body and even a hack like me, can put one together and make it work and sound good. Are you getting what you paid for with a normal, production Gibson or Fender? Maybe, maybe not... depends on the person. But it's pretty clear you DO get what you pay for with an Agile or something similar.

And no, I don't buy the "Lamborghini kit on a Fiero mod" association. Total nonsense. A 3000M Agile with the 3/4" cap, Tusq nut, Gotoh hardware, etc is not a bad guitar on any level and a $6000 Gibson is really NOT 6x better a guitar. LABOR, LABOR, LABOR.... that is the prime reasoning of price levels in consumer goods. I've studied economics for many, many years and labor costs are, by far, the largest factor in prices. There's the facts. Gibson still uses Grade C lumber on many of their production guitars, pot metal parts on even the most expensive ones and refuses to use anything but plastic inlays on anything but their best acoustic guitars. Not worth it to me.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Since most of us here aren't fulltime musicians (good luck in this economy), we typically have day jobs and gig when we can. When you play in a crowded local bar, full of smoke clouds and intoxicated people, crammed on an undersize stage, instruments can age pretty quickly. Things get knocked over, gouged, dropped, stepped on, spilled on, etc. Not really the best place for $5,000 or $10,000 worth of guitars and amp, especially packing up at 2:00AM in a dark alley. Whenever I see gear being sold that's been regularly gigged with, it's always beat-to-crap and never sells for much (in the accounting world, we call it 'fully depreciated'). That makes an Agile or Epi a much better choice for these situations. Save the good stuff for those (few) upscale corporate gigs and private parties, or for your at-home playing. Take the expendable stuff to the riskier situations.

You know, all the fulltime musicians I know are perpetually broke, and a lot of high-end guitars are way more than they can afford. Unless they're on the road all year playing bigger gigs and some festivals, they're not making much.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

An Agile will get you 90% of the way. It will play good and sound good, but every little bit of that extra 10% makes the price increase disproportionately. It's like power and speed. A Vette will get you 90% of the way to a "real" supercar, but that extra 10% is gonna cost you...

You guys need to lighten up. I like the way expensive (ish) guitars feel and play and if I want it, I'm willing to pay or save for it. I have been impressed by a LOT of cheaper guitars like some of the Schecter Diamond series stuff and a lot of the LTDs, but I really want maybe 5% of that extra 10%.

See?
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Aceman said:
#1 cognitive Dissonance / Funadamental Attribution Error - I have a PhD and don't feel the need to use those words most days. Well said, and pretty much in context. Now never use those words in a guitar thread again. Thank you, Dr. Aceman.
Click to expand...

Sorry Ace, but I've had a think over it, and I feel that these concepts are central to what we're discussing in this thread. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who doesn't understand that is less a participant in the conversation than a case study.

Three other things:
1.) Fundamental attribution error. This severely compromises our objectivity in evaluating the reports of strangers on the Internet. Especially if we don't like what we're hearing, we make assumptions about the eyewitness's character, intelligence, experience, competence, etc. It gets hard to separate the testimony from our opinions of the reporter himself.

2.) Hyperbole. Our language has become prone to exaggeration. I don't mean lying or misleading, but rather bumping up the intensity of descriptive words and phrases a notch or two. Or more. It's not enough to make a mistake anymore; it has to be an "EPIC FAIL!!!!!!" You can't just beat someone at chess; you have to annihilate them, or possibly even commit heinous sex crimes against them. And it's often not enough to prefer one guitar over another; no, the guitar we like has to destroy the other one, or blow it away, or be a million times better. (In fact, it's the best guitar on the market, period. It's a fact. Why? Because it is!) Too much of this, and we start to sound like children. And not in a nice forever-young kind of way.

3.) Focus on the negative. We all do it. "I've got a new pedal, and I like it soooo much better than the other pedal I tried out at the same time. It doesn't even compare. The other pedal was cheesy looking and funny-shaped. It took up too much room on a pedal board. I didn't like the rocker switches for the secondary functions. I didn't like how it distorted the signal even when I played really soft and rolled back the guitar's volume. It was from a company that isn't very good at pedals or else they're just new at it. But my new pedal is much better! It totally pwns those snooty boutique pedals. It crushes that overrated piece of crap from company X. And best of all it's one of the old ones from before they let those people in [wherever] start making them."
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

blueman335 said:
Since most of us here aren't fulltime musicians (good luck in this economy), we typically have day jobs and gig when we can. When you play in a crowded local bar, full of smoke clouds and intoxicated people, crammed on an undersize stage, instruments can age pretty quickly. Things get knocked over, gouged, dropped, stepped on, spilled on, etc. Not really the best place for $5,000 or $10,000 worth of guitars and amp, especially packing up at 2:00AM in a dark alley.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that intoxicated people in a late-night bar situation wouldn't give two horse craps about whether you are playing a $10,000 Les Paul through a SLO-100 or an Agile played through a Jet City. Purely these sorts of things, at least in the situation most of us are in, only matter to ourselves. We don't pay ourselves to play gigs and we don't buy our own records. Honestly man, I have enjoyed myself more playing gigs with guys traveling in a dirty old van, full of beat up middle-grade equipment, than with the "blues lawyers" with the uber awesome gear, carried in their BMW SUV.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

I've frequently had bar patrons at shows I was playing come up to me between sets and ask to inspect my Les Paul to make sure it had vintage-correct push-back wiring. :fing2:

Just messing with you. I've never played for more than about three people at a time.

So what's the goal here, anyway? Some of us are trying to prove that there's never a legitimate reason for anyone to buy an expensive guitar, and some others are trying to prove that they're worth the money to some players?

See those bloody patches in the grass over there? They used to be horses.
 
Re: NGD Agile 3100 Review..Agile Vs. Gibson Les Paul

Since this is back ttt, I just don't wan't anyone to lose sight of the fact I think these AGILES are groovy guitars, and as a grateful guest here , please remember that these Agiles BEG for a pickup swap with a new set of Seymour Duncans to get some nice tone!

Lets go ahead and let this thread die with dignity now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
NGD-2023 Gibson Les Paul Custom Axcess
Replies
10
Views
156
STLMTLHD79
S
blakejcan
how do you make the heel of a Les Paul Jr neck?
Replies
17
Views
120
blakejcan
blakejcan
Jermo3178
NGD Triple Threat
Replies
5
Views
81
80's_Metal
80's_Metal
C
NGD: US PRS
Replies
10
Views
90
GuitarStv
GuitarStv
Rex_Rocker
DiMarzio Breed vs. Suhr SSH+?
Replies
8
Views
221
Ascension
Ascension
Back
Top